THE FOLLOWING IS THE FIRST INITIAL POLICE STATEMENTS AND THE GRAND JURY TESTIMONY OF COREY BOLASKI. IN HIS POLICE INTERVIEW HE MAKES MANY STATEMENTS INCRIMINATING KYLE AND THE OTHERS. ONE SUCH DAMNING STATEMENT WAS: "KYLE, JERRY AND THAT TIM GUY WERE THE INSTIGATORS OF THE WHOLE THING!" HE THREW KYLE UNDER THE BUS MULTIPLE TIMES WITH HIS POLICE STATEMENTS. BUT THEN IN HIS GRAND JURY HE WENT BY THE SCRIPTED STORY THEY ALL HAD.
YOU WILL READ HOW HIS ENTIRE GRAND JURY TESTIMONY IS COMPLETELY OPPOSITE OF HIS INITIAL POLICE STATEMENTS. HE PERJURES HIMSELF TIME AND AGAIN ALL WITH THE BLESSING, AND ASSISTANCE, OF ROBERT SAND...
POLICE STATEMENT OF COREY BOLASKI
STATE OF VERMONT
WINDSOR COUNTY, SS.
6 ) Windsor District Court
STATE OF VERMONT
8 ) Docket No.: 972-8-08 WrCr
KYLE BOLASKI, )
11 ) Digital Recording
16 STATEMENT OF COREY BOLASKI
Statement of Corey Bolaski as recorded on August
17 and 18, 2008.
Detective Trooper Daniel Trudeau
1 (August 17, 2008)
2 DETECTIVE TROOPER DANIEL TRUDEAU:
3 Q. Can you just -- is it C-o-r-e-y?
4 A. (No audible response)
5 Q. And your middle initial?
6 A. M.
7 Q. M. And spell the last name for me.
8 A. B, as in boy, --
9 Q. Yeah.
10 A. -- o-l-a-s-k-i.
11 Q. And your date of birth, Corey?
12 A. 8/6/86.
13 Q. And your address?
14 A. 57 North Street, Chester, Vermont 05143, I believe
15 that's -- I just moved there a little bit ago. I'm from
17 Q. Okay. You got a home phone?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. What's that?
20 A. 802 --
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. -- 875 --
23 Q. Yup.
24 A. -- triple one 2.
25 Q. 1112. You got a cell phone at all?
1 A. No.
2 Q. All right. So that number, if I ever had to call
3 you to ask about anything else, --
4 A. Yeah, that's where I live. That's my --
5 Q. That's where to go?
6 A. That's my apartment house phone number, yeah.
7 Q. Okay. It's Dan Trudeau of the state police. I'm
8 here with Corey Bolaski. We're at the barracks. Corey was
9 witness or involved in an incident that occurred in Chester.
10 I'm not quite sure what the time was at this point, but, um,
11 I'm going to sit down with Corey here and try to capture
12 what he remembers seeing happened.
13 Because of the custody issue, like I explained
14 earlier, you were held for a little bit at the scene there
15 until we could get some detectives to come in and chat with
16 you and get your statement, okay, because of that, I'm just
17 going to read your Miranda, rights, okay. You're not under
18 arrest. You understand that, okay.
19 You have the right to remain silent. Anything you
20 say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
21 Have a right to talk to a lawyer before questioning and have
22 a lawyer present with you during questioning. If you cannot
23 afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent
25 A. Isn't this questioning though?
1 Q. What's that?
2 A. This isn't questioning or it is questioning?
3 Q. Well, yeah, I'm going to can ask you a couple
5 A. All right, yeah. I just didn't know if I have a --
6 if they had -- saying do you have a right to have a lawyer
7 or do you not?
8 Q. What do you mean?
9 A. Like it says you're allowed to have a lawyer.
10 Q. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm just explaining. These are your
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. We're going to talk. I'll have you just say Corey,
14 just tell me what happened --
15 A. I'd just like to know -- I'd like to know all about
16 everything, how everything goes. I don't know. I've never
17 been in this situation so --
18 Q. Yeah, no, this is just how we do it so you know
19 what's going on, okay?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Because obviously there was some sort of incident
22 there, criminal in nature.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And then that with you being a witness to it and you
25 were being detained there for so long, okay, --
1 A. Yeah -- so I have to sign that is basically --
2 Q. –- that’s why I’m reading these, okay? Hang on.
3 Let me finish reading it. And I'm going to go back to
4 number 3 because I don't know if I finished it.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. You have a right to talk to a lawyer before
7 questioning, have a lawyer present with you during
8 questioning. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one
9 will be appointed to represent you at public expense for any
10 questioning if you wish. In Vermont that's called a public
11 defender. If you decide to answer questions, you may stop
12 the questioning at any time. Do you understand each of
13 these rights I've explained to you?
14 A. I do. But I don't understand this one.
15 Q. Which one?
16 A. This one here.
17 Q. Number 3?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Let me turn it around.
20 A. You have a right to talk to a lawyer before
21 questioning. This is questioning and I haven't talked to a
23 Q. Yeah. Well, I'm telling you that's your right.
24 A. So --
25 Q. I haven't asked you any questions yet.
1 A. -- I probably should.
2 Q. I haven't asked you any questions yet.
3 A. Okay. Yeah, I know that. But --
4 Q. Well, I mean, you know what --
5 A. -- before questioning I have a right.
6 Q. Yeah, before. We haven't got --
7 A. We haven't had any, but --
8 Q. We haven't had any talk -- we haven't even talked
10 A. Yeah, I know, but I can -- I know that, but I can
11 talk to one before I talk to you.
12 Q. You could. You could. But we're here now. That's
13 why we came here to talk, okay.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. I mean, it's important to get everybody's side of
16 the story.
17 A. I understand that, but --
18 Q. So like I said, everybody else is talking to the
19 different detectives right now so, you know, so after we're
20 done with this room, we'll probably have people outside
21 waiting to use it so --
22 A. It just seems like I should be able to talk to a
23 lawyer before I talk to you so that way somebody with some
24 know-how is telling me --
25 Q. Well, I mean, obviously I can't give you legal
1 advice. I'm not a lawyer so --
2 A. Exactly.
3 Q. Okay. But I just explained your options.
4 A. But this is pretty -- pretty difficult situation
5 here for me seeing as how I'm only 22 years old, and I
6 haven't –- I mean, feel like I should be -- I need every --
7 you know, I feel like I should be able to have a -- if I
8 need –-
9 Q. Well, like I said, Corey, --
10 A. -- a question -– if this is a criminal thing, like
11 you're saying, I should be able to have a lawyer. I'd
12 rather not be here by myself telling you --
13 Q. Well, from what I understand, you might have only
14 just witnessed something. So I don't know what you saw.
15 A. Yeah, I did witness something.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. But that has nothing to do with it I don't really
18 feel. I'm trying to be -- I mean, I can give you –-
19 Q. Well, do you think that –-
20 A. I feel like this –- I feel like this is something
21 totally different than what I just gave the other officer
22 down in Chester where I was telling him about just, like,
23 what I saw. I mean, that was totally different from this
24 about having to talk to a lawyer first and everything else,
25 you know what I'm saying? Do you understand what I'm
2 Q. Listen, do you think that this doesn't apply to you,
3 these Miranda rights?
4 A. I feel like this is something more significant than
5 what I just did.
6 Q. Because listen, --
7 A. And I haven't talked to a lawyer --
8 Q. Listen --
9 A. -- is all I'm saying.
10 Q. As far as --
11 A. This is a significant situation as far as I feel.
12 I'm very --
13 Q. Well, listen --
14 A. I feel like I'm going to throw up in my mouth right
16 Q. I don't want you to throw up.
17 A. I know. I know you don't. But I'm saying that's
18 how I feel right now, do you understand that?
19 Q. I understand you have some anxiety.
20 A. It's hard. It's hard to deal with this situation
21 and not knowing what your rights are and not know what you
22 should, you know, because --
23 Q. Listen, --
24 A. -- this is a serious situation, like I'm saying.
25 Q. Yeah.
1 A. Very.
2 Q. It is serious.
3 A. And I don't know what to do, and I want to make the
4 right decision.
5 Q. Well, I want you to too. And I think being honest
6 and explaining what you saw and what you remember is
8 A. It is, I definitely think so, but --
9 Q. Okay. And if you don't think -- like I told you,
10 you're not under arrest. I'm just reading you these because
11 there was some sort of detention period.
12 A. I know. All I know –- what I’m saying obviously you
13 don't even know what happened yet. So it's not like this is
14 -- this is something based on -- you know, I mean, you --
15 after the statement you could say, oh, Mr. Corey Bolaski, we
16 feel like you done this so we're going to arrest you, you
17 know what I mean?
18 Q. Well, I'm not --
19 A. I haven't --
20 Q. Listen, --
21 A. -- even talked to a lawyer yet.
22 Q. Listen, --
23 A. I haven't even talked to a lawyer.
24 Q. Listen, you're talking too much. You're talking too
25 much right now, okay.
1 A. I'm scared.
2 Q. You need to listen a little bit right now, okay?
3 You're not under arrest, okay? I'm not the case officer, so
4 I'm not going to arrest you, okay. Whatever information you
5 have, I'm going to write it down, it's going to be recorded
6 anyway, and I will tell the case officer, you know what,
7 Corey Bolaski, I had a chat with him. This is what he saw,
8 this is what he remembers, these are the details he could
9 recall, okay, and that's what we're doing. We're all kind
10 of fact finders. Everybody's collecting a little
11 information right now, okay?
12 A. But why do they give you that information you can
13 have a lawyer and talk to a lawyer first? That must be
14 important, I feel.
15 Q. Because it's your right. Everybody, everybody has
16 that right.
17 A. Well, wouldn't you want to talk to a lawyer before
18 you got yourself involved in a situation?
19 Q. A lot of people do, a lot of people don't.
20 A. So I'm starting to feel like I should.
21 Q. We don't even read these all the time to be honest
22 with you, okay. In fact, I don't think it really even
23 applies in this -- in this scenario, okay, because you're
24 not under arrest, and that's most of the scenario when this
1 A. That's what I don't understand, okay.
2 Q. It's because -- it's because of the detention
3 period, okay. Sounds like Chester PD or maybe some of the
4 other troopers, you know, cordoned off that area down there
5 where there's evidence or whatever happened, and they wanted
6 you to stay by, okay, so you weren't free just to walk away.
7 A. Nobody was.
8 Q. Because of that, because of that, that's what
9 Miranda -- there's two requirements when we have to read
10 Miranda, okay. You have to be in custody, which you're not,
11 but it's a detention period, okay. You were detained for
12 questioning, okay. So are we on a fine line whether I need
13 to read this or not? Yeah, I don't think I have to, but I'm
14 gonna for your protection and for mine, okay, that way we
15 say afterwards that we covered that, okay?
16 A. Yeah. I mean, I just like to tell all you people
17 people trying to give this very (inaudible) opportunity
19 Q. I am. I absolutely am.
20 A. I've told every officer the same thing. It's like
21 I --
22 Q. I mean, I don't know who you talked to or anything
23 like that, but I know my boss asked me, Corey Bolaski over
24 here sitting down on that step or whatever it was, --
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. -- he asked me if I could talk with you and grab
2 your statement.
3 A. All right.
4 Q. Does that make sense?
5 A. It does. I just wanted -- I just -- I'm just, you
6 know, --
7 Q. Because I might not get a chance to talk with you
8 later, okay, and I think you probably have some important
9 information that may be beneficial to you or may be
10 beneficial to the case officer, I'm not sure, okay. Maybe
11 you got nothing, I don't know. But you were there, and this
12 is my assignment.
13 A. All right.
14 Q. Got it?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Are you with me?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Any other questions?
19 A. I guess not other than I feel like I'm fucking
20 myself over but --
21 Q. Well, do you understand these are the rights I've
22 explained to you?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Do you wish to speak to me now? Was this a --
25 number 6, do you understand these are the rights I've
1 explained to you, was that a yes or a no?
2 A. Yeah. Yes.
3 Q. Do you wish to speak to me now?
4 A. No, I mean -- speak to you, what do you mean? Yeah,
5 I'm going to talk to you.
6 Q. We're going to talk, yeah, yeah. And this is just a
7 waiver, we call it the Miranda waiver. I have been advised
8 I have the right to remain silent, to talk with a lawyer
9 prior to questioning or have one present during questioning.
10 Knowing my rights, I agree to waive them now -- agree to
11 waive them and talk to you now. No threats or promises have
12 been made to me, okay. Do you understand that?
13 A. Yeah. This is just I don't -- I just feel like I
14 should talk to somebody first, a lawyer.
15 Q. Well, you know, I don't know what your involvement
16 was, I really don't. I don't even know what this whole
17 thing is about?
18 A. I don't think it's right though, people that aren't
19 involved get in trouble for shit like this. I've read about
20 it a thousand times, that's why -- I'm not stupid. And I
21 know that I didn't do anything, yes, but I also know that --
22 Q. I don't even know if anybody got arrested at the
24 A. Well, obviously people get in trouble for shit like
25 that. People go out and just not get in trouble for that.
1 All I'm saying is I feel like I don't know anything about
2 the law. I don't know.
3 Q. I don't --
4 A. And I think I should be appointed a lawyer too
5 now --
6 Q. I don't know --
7 A. -- for what's going on --
8 Q. Listen, --
9 A. -- is all I'm saying, sir.
10 Q. Listen, look at me. I don't know about the facts of
11 what happened out there. You know some of the facts. So
12 it's important, I believe for you, to say, hey, this is what
13 position I was put in. This is what happened. This is what
14 I saw, okay.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Make sense? Can you just date and time for me.
17 A. 8/17.
18 Q. August 17, yeah. And it's 11:38 -- or, I'm sorry,
20 So first off, maybe if you just -- just tell me in
21 general what happened out there, Corey.
22 A. In general would you like to know what was going on
23 the day before or no?
24 Q. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know how you get
25 involved in all this or how you know --
1 A. I don't even know --
2 Q. -- all these people.
3 A. That's what I'm saying, I don't even know this kid.
4 I don't even know what -- if I was to see this kid on the
5 street, I wouldn't even know what he looked -- I have no
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Don't even know. I don't even know who he is, no
10 Q. Which kid are we talking now, just so I --
11 A. This -- this -- the kid -- the kid -- the kid that
12 was running after us with the frickin' splitting maul.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Not me.
15 Q. Do you know his name at all, just so --
16 A. Yeah, his --
17 Q. What?
18 A. -- name is Vinnie or something.
19 Q. Vinnie?
20 A. Vincent, Vinnie.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I don't know anything other than that.
23 Q. I mean, that's the first I've heard his name, so
24 that's why I'm just asking you. So when we're talking about
25 this guy, I know which guy you're talking about. Tell me
1 about yesterday.
2 A. I went to bed early yesterday. I wasn't involved in
3 any of this yesterday.
4 Q. What do you know about yesterday?
5 A. I know about yesterday is that I'm friends with --
6 vaguely friends with this kid Tristan Blanchard, and I'm
7 friends with Gibb, Gibb Bastian.
8 Q. Tristan and Gibb, yeah.
9 A. Yup. And yesterday supposedly -- and Ben Millay.
10 Q. And Ben?
11 A. Ben Millay. Ben and Tristan were at Tristan's house
12 in Chester yesterday.
13 Q. Uh-huh.
14 A. This kid, Vinnie, shows up at Tristan's house, --
15 Q. Yup.
16 A. -- from what I heard.
17 Q. Who told you this?
18 A. Tristan told me this.
19 Q. Tristan, okay.
20 A. And Gibb told me this.
21 Q. All three of these guys were there?
22 A. I didn't talk to Ben. Yes, all -- well, Gibb wasn't
23 there. Tristan and Ben were there at this point in time
24 when this kid showed up.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. This kid, Vinnie. Vinnie showed up up there. The
2 door was unlocked. He just came upstairs. He wouldn't --
3 from what I understand, he wanted to -- oh, because Tristan
4 and Ben were there, and Ben had been dating this girl or had
5 messed around, had relations with this girl Julie Kronberg,
7 Q. Julie, got ya.
8 A. Julie Kronberg.
9 Q. Now, --
10 A. Vinnie and Julie had just started hanging out
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. So Julie said something about Ben Millay saying
14 something that he said, okay. So he knew that Ben Millay
15 was at Tristan's from his truck. Ben's truck was at
17 Q. And Gibb wasn't there yet?
18 A. Gibb was not there.
19 Q. Got ya.
20 A. From what I understand. But Gibb was dating that
21 other girl Kirby who is in for witnessing right now. They
22 had just broken up. They had been together for eight years.
23 They had just broken up.
24 Q. Uh-huh.
25 A. Gibb -- and she had been hanging out with this kid
1 Vinnie too, I guess, from what I had heard. She had been
2 hanging out with this kid. This kid Vinnie is from Boston.
3 His brother, C.T., was in the Real World or some shit, and
4 he's a bigger kid. That's all we know. He's from Boston
5 and he's -- his brother's in the real world, C.T., this
6 Vinnie kid.
7 Q. Okay. Vinnie was -- is --
8 A. Vinnie is dating --
9 Q. Dating Julie now?
10 A. Is hanging out with Julie. And somehow Julie ran
11 her mouth about Ben. So Vinnie came up trying to fight Ben.
12 He wanted to take -- he came up into Tristan's house
13 yesterday about four or 5:00 during the day and wanted Ben
14 to go outside in the parking lot with him.
15 Q. Where does Tristan live?
16 A. Tristan lives --
17 Q. In Chester or --
18 A. Yeah, if you go past the Jiffy Mart and then you go
19 past the hardware store and then there's that next left-hand
20 street right there right before the green, it's that
21 left-hand road, --
22 Q. I'm not from the area so --
23 A. Well, you know where the Chester green is?
24 Q. Yeah, roughly.
25 A. It's right before there on the left-hand side.
1 Q. Got ya.
2 A. So that's where he lives.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And he goes up and he wanted to fight with Ben or
5 whatever, and both Tristan and Michelle were yelling at him
6 to leave, just, you know, leave, don't leave the house. He
7 wouldn't leave. He wouldn't leave. So finally I guess the
8 kid left after stealing some money off of Tristan's table.
9 He stole some money and then left.
10 Q. So Tristan's door was open or unlocked, or --
11 A. Yeah, it was --
12 Q. -- did they invite him in or --
13 A. It was unlocked, but he lives -- like, he lives
14 upstairs and you have to go up –- like, you go into a
15 mudroom and then it goes upstairs to his apartment. The kid
16 just came up. Like, he was all of a sudden there in the
17 living room.
18 Q. Helped himself and just went in?
19 A. Yeah, just -- and he's a huge kid.
20 Q. Yeah.
21 A. Tristan's not and Ben's not, they're not fighters,
22 neither am I. I mean, the kid is a huge kid. He's -- from
23 what I understand, he's on Xanax, Prozac. He's been taking
24 steroids, I guess. I mean, the kid --
25 Q. He drove all the way up from Boston or does he --
1 A. No, he lives here now and so does C.T.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. And he lives here and he's been dating Julie, that's
4 the thing, --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. -- he's been hanging out with Julie.
7 Q. Just let me stop you for one second.
8 A. But this is an old subject.
9 Q. This Ben and Julie, they used to be --
10 A. That's an older subject. She's his dink or
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. They weren't going out, but there was some --
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. -- there was some deal in between those two is all
18 I'm saying.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And they got him involved. I don't know how. But
21 this involved, you know what I mean? Then he stole money
22 from Tristan. And so Tristan and Gibb and Ben went and
23 followed him to Springfield, which she went up -- he went up
24 to Summer Street Hill to Julie's house, this is where the
25 incident went down last night, where he punched -- he
1 started -- Michelle was Tristan's girlfriend, and Jordan,
2 this younger girl, who's 16, were also there. Vinnie
3 started pushing those two girls, and he had -- you know, he
4 had a knife and he was threatening everybody there, and he
5 ended up punching Gibb in the face and knocking him out,
6 knocked Gibb out.
7 Q. This is in Springfield though?
8 A. Yes. They followed him to Springfield.
9 Q. Okay. Can we just stop for a sec so I can catch up?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Because you're throwing a lot of --
12 A. I know. I know. It's hard --
13 Q. Throwing a lot of shit at me, man.
14 A. This is all stuff I heard too.
15 Q. No, I know, I know. I just want to -- I just want
16 to -- I just want to try to be on the same --
17 A. This is very --
18 Q. -- same plane as you.
19 A. It's very confusing. There's two girls and there's
20 two guys. And the girls -- what I'm saying is they're using
21 this kid and because -- and they're playing him against --
22 Q. Well, let me tell you what I'm gathering so far and
23 you tell me if I'm wrong, fair enough?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Ben and Julie fooled around at some point.
1 A. Had some thing, yeah.
2 Q. Fooled around, that's it, not dating?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. A while back?
5 A. Yeah, supposedly.
6 Q. Fooled around. Currently Julie and Vinnie are
8 A. Yeah, hanging out.
9 Q. To some extent.
10 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11 Q. Yesterday Ben was at Tristan's house?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And Vinnie --
14 A. Showed up.
15 Q. -- entered probably without permission?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Just showed up?
18 A. Definitely, yes, came in the door --
19 Q. Because he wanted to fight Ben?
20 A. –- and came upstairs. Yes. And wouldn't leave.
21 Q. But he didn't fight Ben at Tristan's?
22 A. He didn't. He did not fight -- no, he didn't. He
23 just -- he took money and left.
24 Q. Okay. Let me keep going.
25 A. Yup.
1 Q. So Vinnie shows up at Tristan's, Ben is there,
2 Vinnie wants to fight Ben?
3 A. Yup.
4 Q. Doesn't happen. Vinnie leaves with some of
5 Tristan's money from the table top?
6 A. I guess, yeah. That's what I heard.
7 Q. Does Vinnie have a weapon or anything like that?
8 A. Yeah. He's got a knife with him and a Taser.
9 Q. No, I mean, like at Tristan's.
10 A. Yeah. He had a knife and a Taser.
11 Q. He was --
12 A. That's what I heard. I don't know. I wasn't there,
13 officer, --
14 Q. Okay. Okay.
15 A. -- so I can't -- this is information I'm not sure
16 about. I'm telling you what was hearsay and what was what I
18 Q. Got ya. So anyway, Vinnie leaves?
19 A. Yeah. Vinnie leaves with the money and they pursue
20 to follow him into Springfield. Tristan calls his buddy
21 Miar, whatever, which is his girlfriend's brother, Miar.
22 His girlfriend is Michelle Lachapelle, okay.
23 Q. Whose girlfriend?
24 A. Tristan's girlfriend is Michelle Lachapelle. She
25 was in the house. Her and Tristan were yelling at this kid
1 to leave. He finally left with the money. They all chased
2 him down to Springfield, Gibb, Ben, Tristan and Michelle.
3 Q. Okay. Hang on. Let me catch up. When did Gibb get
4 there then?
5 A. I have no idea where Gibb comes in and --
6 Q. Okay. But Michelle was there?
7 A. They called -- see, what happened was this kid
8 pushed Michelle and Jordan Evelt, so Gibb was -- that's when
9 Gibb came into it is when these girls got pushed, he stepped
10 into it and said, you don't mess around -- I don't know how
11 he got there to Springfield, I don't know that. That's what
12 part you're going to have to figure out. I have no idea. I
13 was not there.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I was in bed. I didn't even talk to these guys at
16 all last night.
17 Q. Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
18 But this is Springfield you're talking now, right?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Yes, because he -- Vinnie left --
22 Q. So they followed him?
23 A. Vinnie left with the money --
24 Q. Vinnie --
25 A. -- to Summer Hill where Julie lives.
1 Q. Hang on. Stop there. Tristan and Ben followed
2 Vinnie to Springfield?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Where Julie lives on Spring Hill, is that what you
6 A. Summer Hill.
7 Q. Summer Hill.
8 A. Summer Street Hill. You know where you go up by
9 Village Pizza and you take a --
10 Q. What's Julie's last name?
11 A. Julie Kronberg.
12 Q. Kronberg?
13 A. Yup. C-r-o-m-b-e-r-g or b-u-r-g, something like
15 Q. And what's Ben's last name?
16 A. Millay, M-i-l-l-a-y.
17 Q. M-i --
18 A. -- l-l-a-y.
19 Q. And Gibb's last name?
20 A. a-y.
21 Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
22 A. Bastian, B-a-s-t-i-a-n.
23 Q. And Tristan's last name?
24 A. Blanchard, B-l-a-n-c-h-a-r-d.
25 Q. And Vinnie, you don't know his last name?
1 A. I have no idea who Vinnie is at this point in time.
2 Q. Got ya. Michelle is Tristan's girlfriend?
3 A. Michelle Lachapelle.
4 Q. Okay. La --
5 A. c-h-, yup, p-e-l-l-e.
6 Q. Okay. Am I missing anybody? There's some other
7 names you --
8 A. No, that's not it. But there was a ton of people --
9 Q. Jordan?
10 A. There was -- this Jordan Evelt, she was there too, I
11 guess, at the Springfield location. I don't know where she
12 came into the -- I don't know where. There was a bunch --
13 Q. What's her last name?
14 A. Evelt, E-v-e-l-t. Another kid that was there was
15 Mike Gleason, Mike Gleason, he was there too. There was a
16 bunch of people there at the Springfield location. None of
17 which wanted to get involved. The kid busted out a knife,
18 Vinnie, at the party that they were all at.
19 Q. So Tristan and Ben follow Vinnie to --
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. -- Julie's house?
22 A. But they're calling people as they go there.
23 Q. Yeah.
24 A. You know what I mean, because they're scared.
25 Q. Sure.
1 A. They can't beat this kid up.
2 Q. Right.
3 A. He knows that.
4 Q. Because he's a big dude.
5 A. He's big, yes, he's bigger than them, right.
6 Q. How tall is he?
7 A. I have no idea. Like I'm telling you, officer, I
8 have no --
9 Q. No, I'm just saying if they ever explained it to
11 A. I have no idea. He's just wider than that doorway
12 is all I know.
13 Q. Okay. Um --
14 A. So they call a couple other people. At this point
15 in time there's 15 or 20 people that are all on the same
16 side and this one Vinnie kid, and he's got a Taser and a
17 knife, and he's not backing down from anybody. He pushes
18 Michelle and Jordan.
19 Q. And this is at Julie's house?
20 A. At Julie's house. Pushes Michelle and Jordan.
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. And at this point in time Gibb starts -- you know,
23 says don't do anything, don't push them or whatever. He
24 starts getting in -- he starts saying something to Vinnie.
25 As he looks away to look the other way, Vinnie has a knife
1 in one hand, from what I heard, and clobbers Gibb with the
2 other, knocking Gibb to the ground, knocking him out. Just
3 as he's getting up, the Springfield cops are getting there.
4 But they got mad saying that Tristan harassed him because
5 they followed him to Springfield. So they didn't do
6 anything to this kid Vinnie, even though he had a knife in
7 his hand and he just knocked somebody out and he's, you
8 know, a freak.
9 Q. Got ya.
10 A. They didn't do anything.
11 Q. So Springfield PD shows up at Julie's?
12 A. Shows up. They showed up, --
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. -- supposedly from what I heard.
15 Q. And Gibb told you all of this so far?
16 A. Yeah, Gibb told me all this. Tristan told me all
17 this. Because the reason I know this is because I picked
18 Tristan up later tonight -- today. I picked Tristan up,
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Later that night --
22 Q. These guys all your age? I mean --
23 A. Tristan graduated with me. Ben was a couple years
24 -- or Ben was a year older than me. Gibb graduated, like,
25 three, four years ahead of me from Chester and my brother's
1 two years.
2 Q. Where did you go to school, Springfield?
3 A. I went to Springfield.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And my brother's two years ahead of me in
6 Springfield as well.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. So after this Vinnie is pissed off, mad at
10 Q. Sure. Sure.
11 A. He goes to Ben's house last night and slashes all
12 four of his tires at Walnut Hill Court in Springfield.
13 Q. So Vinnie later goes to --
14 A. Ben Millay's house.
15 Q. -- Ben's --
16 A. In Walnut Hill Court and slashes his tires.
17 Q. That's Chester, you said?
18 A. No. That's Springfield.
19 Q. Springfield. Ben's house and slashes his tires.
20 A. Slashes all of his tires.
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. And that was all that happened last night. So then
23 today -- so then today from what I heard he said, I guess,
24 from what was heard, what was said, that he was going to go
25 and find everybody who was involved in last night's episode
1 and find 'em all, you know what I mean? He already had
2 found Ben, he slashed his tires. He was going to go find
3 everybody who was involved and beat their asses one by one.
4 Q. Who did you hear that from?
5 A. That was just the word on the streets. That's what
6 Tristan told me because Tristan called me -- after I got out
7 of work, which was at 3:00, I told you I picked up Kyle, we
8 all went back to the apartment, and Tristan called me from
9 there all -- out in front of his house worried, crying,
10 bawling, worried, saying, I don't feel safe here. This
11 kid's --
12 Q. Because Vinnie's coming after everybody?
13 A. Vinnie keeps driving by his house. When I left --
14 when I got back to my house and I started -- we pulled out,
15 Kirby Donahue, which is Gibb's ex, passed me, and I could
16 see there was two girls in the front and he was in the back,
17 this kid. I had never seen him before so I don't even know
18 what he looks like, but I know that he's been hanging out
19 with Kirby, and the situation between Kirby and Gibb they
20 were going out for eight years and they broke up, see what
21 I'm saying?
22 Q. Kirby's a girl?
23 A. Kirby's the girl.
24 Q. Got ya.
25 A. And she's decided to hang out -- that's why this kid
1 is hanging out with Julie and Kirby, okay. Like, he's
2 hanging out with both of these girls.
3 Q. So that's why Gibb's so pissed off?
4 A. That's why Gibb's into it. So then --
5 Q. What's Kirby's last name?
6 A. Donahue, D-o-n-n --
7 Q. Donahue?
8 A. Donahue, yup.
9 Q. And that's --
10 A. She's from Chester.
11 Q. -- Gibb's ex?
12 A. Gibb's ex for years. They just broke up, like, a
13 couple weeks ago, so it's been a rough situation, you know
14 what I mean?
15 Q. But she's been hanging around with this Vinnie guy?
16 A. With this Vinnie guy, I guess, or she was today
17 obviously, I saw her with him and I saw, you know, that she
18 had been hanging out with him and that was -- I don't know.
19 I don't know what happened last night.
20 Q. No, that's all right. Yeah, I know, it's --
21 A. I really don't. This is what I heard. This is
22 hearsay. You'll have to check into that information.
23 Q. Yeah. No, I know. I know. You're just -- I
24 appreciate the info because you're -- at least I'm --
25 A. So that's what I heard from Tristan. I didn't know
1 any of this information until I got the call from Tristan,
2 who was bawling his eyes out saying that, I don't feel safe
3 in my home. I've never felt -- I think I'm going to have to
4 move. This kid broke into my house yesterday. I'm scared.
5 Michelle's scared. I don't know what to do. So we said,
6 we'll come pick you up so you feel -- you know, so you feel
7 safe. We had just got done scouting, me Kyle and Jerry, we
8 were just out, all out in the woods scouting.
9 Q. For deer?
10 A. For deer. For just looking -- we were out on this
11 back road just cruising it, --
12 Q. I was doing the same thing today.
13 A. -- looking for trails. Just looking for deer runs,
14 that was it.
15 Q. Yeah.
16 A. Nothing -- you know, and that was all we were doing.
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. We'd only been out of work -- I'd only been out of
19 work an hour and a half.
20 Q. So what time were you on the phone with Tristan
22 A. That was probably, I want to say, probably about
23 4:30-ish, five.
24 Q. I'm not holding you the minute.
25 A. Probably around 4:30, 5:00, because I got out of
1 work at 2:30, and that was in Springfield, and I came back
2 to Chester, and we went out in the woods, and then we came
3 back to my apartment and that's when I saw Kirby, this kid
4 and everything else and Tristan called us and said, he keeps
5 driving by our house. He went out in his car, and they were
6 following him in his car. They kept following him. He was
7 worried about -- like, he was obviously, like, he said --
8 like I said, he was scared shitless of this kid. Never been
9 -- I've never -- he said, he goes, I've never -- Corey, he
10 goes, I've never felt like I've had to have a gun in Vermont
11 to protect myself and, he goes, I feel like I have to
12 because I can't do nothing to protect my girlfriend,
14 Q. What does Vinnie drive? You said he was seen --
15 A. I have no idea what he drives.
16 Q. Okay. I just didn't know if he told you.
17 A. He was with Kirby in her Volkswagen.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. It's a hatchback Volkswagen. You know, I don't even
20 know what this kid looks like, so I couldn't even tell you
21 if I saw -- if you put in Vinnie I'd be, like, --
22 Q. Yeah. No idea.
23 A. Yeah. I don't even know the kid.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. So all’s I know is that Jerry said he was, like,
1 yeah, that was that kid because he somehow knows what he
2 looks like or --
3 Q. Who's Jerry?
4 A. Jerry Ucci was -- he works with my brother at
5 Homestead, and they're always together.
6 Q. So you were with Jerry --
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. -- scouting today?
9 A. Me, Jerry and Kyle. Scouting, yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. We went back to the apartment so I could tell my
12 girlfriend what we were doing.
13 Q. You, Jerry and Kyle?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. What's Jerry's last name?
16 A. Ucci. I think it's U-s-s-i.
17 Q. And what's Kyle's last name?
18 A. Same as mine.
19 Q. Oh, that's your brother.
20 A. My brother.
21 Q. Got ya. So you guys were scouting for deer season
22 from 2:30 --
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. -- till 4:30 in that area?
25 A. Yeah. We went out looking at trails and stuff, and
1 obviously we had a -- we had a .22 with us and I think -- I
2 don't know. There was another -- it was another -- it was a
3 high powered rifle. It was, whatever.
4 Q. Yeah.
5 A. It's always in the truck.
6 Q. Sure.
7 A. It's unloaded for, you know, in case you ever run
8 into bear or anything when --
9 Q. Yeah.
10 A. -- you're scouting out, you carry a gun with you.
11 Q. I always have a gun, yup.
12 A. It's not like we're shooting illegal game but just
13 in case. You just carry a gun with you in the woods,
14 especially this time of year.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. So anyhow, we got out of the woods. We went back
17 there and we saw him, then we called Tristan and we talked
18 to Tristan, and he was scared. So we went back to his
19 place, picked Tristan up. So now me and Tristan are
20 together, Tristan started driving, and he was with me and
21 Kyle and Jerry, and that was it, in Kyle's car.
22 Q. So there was four of you?
23 A. Me, Kyle, Jerry, yeah.
24 Q. The three of you guys that were scouting --
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. -- and Tristan?
2 A. And Tristan. And Kyle's dog at that point.
3 Q. You guys were riding around then or --
4 A. Yeah, we had just left my house. We went and picked
5 Tristan up.
6 Q. So you're in your truck, or your brother's truck
7 or --
8 A. No, we were in my brother's truck.
9 Q. Kyle's truck?
10 A. Kyle's truck.
11 Q. So you went to Tristan's in Kyle's truck.
12 A. We picked Kyle -- or we went -- yeah.
13 Q. So then it's you, Jerry, Kyle, Tristan riding
15 A. Yup.
16 Q. Got ya.
17 A. And he's telling us what's going on and how he's so
18 scared, everything else, blah, blah, blah. He's scared, he
19 don't know what to do.
20 Q. So Tristan tells you --
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. -- all this above information?
23 A. Yeah, this, yeah. I start saying, you know, what's
24 going on? What's going on? He's telling me. He says, you
25 know, he's, like, telling me everything that's going on.
1 So, you know, me and Tristan had our differences, but we're
2 good -- I would never want anybody to get the shit kicked
3 out of 'em. We're pretty --
4 Q. For what?
5 A. You know, we used hate each other and now we're
6 decent friends and --
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. And I'd expect somebody to help me out if some huge
9 kid was going to beat the shit out of me --
10 Q. Sure.
11 A. -- and was stalking my house. Like I said, he's
12 like, you know, I don't feel -- the kid came up to my house
13 yesterday once already with a knife. What's he going to
14 come up with next, a gun? Something.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I don't know. So he was scared. We picked him up.
17 And he had told his girlfriend and this other girl to leave
18 so that way this kid showed up, they wouldn't be there.
19 Q. Who is Tristan's girlfriend?
20 A. Michelle Lachapelle.
21 Q. Yeah. Yeah.
22 A. So they left and we left.
23 Q. And who was with Michelle?
24 A. I'm not sure. I think Jordan, that Jordan chick, I
1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. That's all right.
4 A. I think.
5 Q. So Tristan tells Michelle and Jordan to leave his
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So there's nobody at Tristan's house?
9 A. Yeah. So that way if the kid comes back -- you got
10 somebody knocking. Hello?
11 Q. No, I think it was my foot. Sorry. So he tells the
12 girls to leave?
13 A. Yeah. We all leave.
14 Q. In case Vinnie shows up?
15 A. In case, yeah, because they don't -- he doesn't, you
16 know, scared for them.
17 Q. Yup.
18 A. He doesn't --
19 Q. Yup.
20 A. So we all leave and we're driving. We're just
21 driving around. And Jerry calls Kirby because, like I said,
22 we had thought we had seen this kid. And Tristan wanted to
23 talk to this kid and tell him, you know, what is your
24 problem. But he's too scared of the kid. So Jerry calls
25 Kirby up saying, where's this kid? Where is Vinnie?
1 Talking to Vinnie, you know. What are you doing? What's
2 your problem? This kid gets on the phone saying he's gonna
3 -- he's a crazy mother F'er and he's going to find everyone
4 involved and all this shit.
5 Q. So Jerry gets on the phone with him?
6 A. Yeah, oh, yeah.
7 Q. Because they're riding together?
8 A. Jerry calls --
9 Q. Jerry and --
10 A. -- Kirby.
11 Q. Yup.
12 A. Yup. And Kirby gives the phone to this other kid.
13 Q. So Kirby and Vinnie are together?
14 A. Yeah. Because Tristan had confirmed that they were
15 driving by his house. They kept seeing this car drive by.
16 So we were, like, oh, that makes sense. We had seen some
17 kid with Kirby earlier, you know.
18 Q. So Jerry talks to Vinnie on the phone?
19 A. Jerry knows Kirby. Jerry went to Chester with
20 Kirby, you know what I mean? We live in Chester, me and
21 Kyle, but I'm from Springfield. So I don't really know
22 Jerry that well, I don't know Kirby that well. Gibb's from
23 Chester. I don't really -- but Jerry knows Kirby, so he
24 calls up Kirby and he's, like, you know, let me talk to this
25 Vinnie kid. This Vinnie kid gets on the phone saying he's
1 going to beat everybody up, you know, he's going to hurt
2 everyone, all this and that. So Jerry, I think, told him to
3 -- or he was asking him where he was or whatever, and the
4 kid was saying he was going to beat him up, and he told him
5 to -- I think he told him to -- that's why I don't -- I
6 don't remember this part exactly, but I think he told him to
7 go down to the ball field. That's why I think the kid
8 showed up there. That's why I don't -- I don't -- I was
9 inside at Jiffy Mart at this point in time. I don't really
10 -- there was some -- there was some blue areas of where I
11 don't know, you know what I mean?
12 Q. So you think Jerry told Vinnie to go to the ball
14 A. Right. And Vinnie -- I mean, Jerry called up this
15 kid Tim, Tim Parker. This is -- he's a bigger kid. He
16 plays on the softball team. He calls up -- Jerry and this
17 Tim are good friends, and Tim's a well known tough guy or
18 whatever, you know, whatever, I guess, and so frickin' --
19 he's, like, yeah, bring him -- have him come down to the
20 ball field, blah, blah, blah, this and that or something, I
21 think. So that's why I think that he told him to go to the
22 ball field, obviously, because, you know, they're all --
23 this kid's huge and he's on steroids and they know he's got
24 weapons. They know at this point in time he's got a knife,
25 he's got, you know, a Taser. He's already threatened it
1 once, you know, you know, so --
2 Q. Is Jerry your brother Kyle's friend? Is that --
3 A. Yup. They work at Homestead together.
4 Q. Got ya.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. I just wanted to make sure we didn't have a
7 different Jerry here.
8 A. Nope. No.
9 Q. Okay. So the four of you are together?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. You believe Jerry tells Vinnie to show up at the
12 ball field?
13 A. Right. And --
14 Q. And Jerry has a --
15 A. In, like, X amount of minutes, 20 minutes, you
16 better be at the ball field. But this kid hangs up or
17 whatever. So Jerry calls Tim Arbuckle, Tim Arbuckle, and
18 says who is playing at the softball game? And Tim is the
19 one that tells us to come down there or whatever, I think,
20 or tells -- you know what I mean? He says, you know, come
21 down here and I'll (inaudible). Like I said, he's a tough
22 guy or whatever and --
23 Q. So does he talk to Tim before he calls Vinnie and
24 tells him to go to the softball field or --
25 A. I think it was -- I don't know if it was after or
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I think it was probably after because if he -- if
4 Tim said come to the softball field and then that was when
5 Jerry probably was, like -- I think because the kid hung up.
6 I think Jerry called back and said, if you're a man or, you
7 know, meet me at the softball field or whatever. That's
8 why, you know, and then we all -- they said, go down to the
9 softball field. So I went down there, not knowing really of
10 the full intentions of what was going on. But we still had
11 those two -- those two guns with us, whatever.
12 Q. So just let me make sure with this Tim Arbuckle
13 thing. Jerry calls Tim. Tim is a tough guy down at the
14 softball field and says --
15 A. Yeah, Tim just --
16 Q. -- bring him this way?
17 A. Yeah, no, I guess, Tim, yeah, Tim said, you know,
18 I'll take care of it. I mean, Tim was called last night, I
19 guess, when this kid was messing around because Tim is
20 supposedly Tristan's girlfriend's, like he just, I don't
21 know, he will help him out or whatever. Like I said, he's a
22 tough guy. So he says, you know, come down here.
23 So the kid -- you know, I mean, we all go down there
24 and they're having their little game down there and we're
25 all hanging out there for a little bit, not doing -- you
1 know, we're all fine down there. Then all of a sudden this
2 car pulls up, which is down by -- you know, the field's here
3 and there was -- you know what I mean, there's the white
4 trailer here, you take a left into the field and --
5 Q. Yeah.
6 A. -- before you come around, he was waiting down here
7 in this car, okay. We're all down here at the field.
8 Q. How long were you guys at the field before he showed
10 A. Probably 15 minutes, 20 minutes.
11 Q. Did you see the car or did you see this guy first or
12 did -- who recognized him?
13 A. I had no -- somebody -- Tim and Kyle and Jerry or
14 something, they started walking, like, out and Tristan was,
15 like, that's that kid or whatever. He got out of the car
16 and he was going like this.
17 Q. Tim or Vinnie?
18 A. No, no. This Vinnie kid. They got out of the gray
19 car, and he was from far away, but you could tell that that
20 was the kid. And he's, like, bring it. Look how many it
21 takes of you. And this is just me. And he's got the Taser
22 and he keeps going like this, and they were, like, --
23 Q. Was this Kirby's car he's in?
24 A. I don't -- no, no, no. This is a different car.
25 This is just a gray four-door sedan at this point in time,
1 the one that was still down at the scene.
2 Q. Okay. Not sure whose car. Yeah.
3 A. So this kid, he's yelling, he has a Taser. And
4 they're, like, drop the Taser, drop the Taser. So he
5 finally -- I think he puts the Taser in the front seat, but
6 he gets out the axe, gets out a axe out of the car and
7 starts running towards -- saying he's crazy, starts running
8 towards my brother and Jerry and I think it was Tim or some
9 other kid that was up there talking with him. You know what
10 I mean? They're at the ball field, a little bit beyond --
11 the vehicles are -- the ball field, the vehicles, and
12 they're up here talking, and he's over here at this car
13 waving his arms saying, you know, come get me, come get me.
14 So he comes --
15 Q. What’s the Taser look like?
16 A. I don't -- it's far away.
17 Q. Could you see it?
18 A. It's far away. Yeah, you could see the thing
19 glowing on.
20 Q. You could see the glow?
21 A. Yeah, you could hear it. You could hear the Taser.
22 So he -- I think he put it down or -- I don't think he put
23 it down. He probably put it in his pocket, but he started
24 -- he grabbed the axe, whatever was in the front seat -- or
25 he was in the back seat, both the girls in the front seat,
1 and he comes running towards everybody that's --
2 Q. So there was two girls in the front seat?
3 A. Yeah, I think so. I'm pretty sure, yeah. Because
4 that was who was with -- I think at the switched cars. They
5 were in Kirby's car, and I think they switched into this
6 other car because it wasn't Kirby's car that pulled up down
7 there. It wasn't the Golf. It was a different car.
8 Q. Okay. So not Kirby's?
9 A. Not Kirby's.
10 Q. Do you know if Kirby was there or --
11 A. Yeah, I think she was. I don't -- I can't tell you
12 for sure, but I'm pretty sure that -- obviously he was just
13 with her 15 minutes before. Unless he went, you know, and
14 got with two different girls right then.
15 Q. Yeah. Yeah. So you think it's Kirby, but you're
16 not sure who the other one is?
17 A. I'm pretty positive it's Kirby, and I don't know who
18 -- maybe Julie. I don't know. I don't know at that point
19 in time. Don't know.
20 Q. Got ya.
21 A. All’s I know is I'm back in kind of the recessed
22 crowd area, you know, where everybody else is, and everybody
23 knows what's going on because this kid is screaming saying
24 he's going to beat everybody up and everything else, and he
25 comes running after everybody, towards the vehicles. So
1 Jerry runs one way, Kyle runs the other way, and this other
2 kid runs the other way, and I'm back, you know, in the crowd
3 area. And so this kid comes -- Kyle goes running back, and
4 this kid starts running back towards him, and Kyle goes --
5 he says, unlock my truck or -- I don't know, he said
6 something, he was going to get in his truck, and the kid was
7 running after him.
8 Q. This is your brother?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. He's running after --
11 A. My brother shut the door like this or something and
12 the kid just -- that's when he struck the windshield and
13 then just started beating the side of the truck.
14 Q. So this is Kyle's truck we're talking?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Is Kyle in the truck?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. He gets in the truck now?
19 A. Gets in the truck. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty
21 Q. No, I know. I'm just trying to --
22 A. He gets in the truck. He hops in the truck. And
23 this kid -- because the truck was unlocked, so I hit unlock.
24 Q. Was Vinnie chasing him or --
25 A. Yeah, Vinnie was chasing them with the -- with the
1 axe. And that's the problem is is that the truck, Kyle's
2 truck, was locked, and he was going to run into the truck
3 for protection, and the truck was locked, so he was trying
4 to get into the truck, and Vinnie's chasing him with the
5 axe. So I hit unlock. Kyle opens the door and shuts it,
6 and the kid starts smashing at the truck with the axe.
7 So Kyle grabs the gun, one of the guns, and he gets
8 out the other side of the truck and starts -- and goes
9 around the truck and he's, like, Get back. Get back. You
10 know, like, telling this kid get back. The kid's just
11 smashed up his truck, tried to smash him up with an axe.
12 Just barely missed him, just barely. He shut the door and
13 the kid struck the door, the windshield, smashing it. So
14 Kyle gets out and he's, like, Get back, Get back. And the
15 kid comes running towards him, dude, again. I mean, it was
16 somebody even -- so I think -- that's when I think there was
17 a shot that went off or something and --
18 Q. How did you unlock the door?
19 A. Because I have the keys.
20 Q. So you had the --
21 A. The padlock.
22 Q. Okay. How far were you from this?
23 A. I was on the opposite side of the truck.
24 Q. Oh, okay.
25 A. Okay. See what I'm saying? There's the ball field
1 here, here are the vehicles, here was him. And he was
2 running this way. Everybody was fleeing back this way.
3 Kyle -- there's the truck. So Kyle was trying to get in the
4 truck and he came and smashed the truck. I'm over here.
5 I'm on the opposite side. Everybody's near the tent,
6 everybody's back this way. So Kyle gets out this side and
7 starts looping around the vehicle, you know.
8 Q. Yeah.
9 A. And this kid's looping around the vehicle and he's
10 coming at -- he's pursuing this kid with this axe and
11 smashing shit.
12 Q. How many times do you think this Vinnie hits the
13 truck with the axe?
14 A. I don't know. Probably five, six times, seven times
15 as hard as he can, seems like, just smashing it. Obviously
16 he's --
17 Q. In what area? Because I haven't seen the truck.
18 A. The door, the whole driver's side. Kyle got in the
19 truck and literally as he shut the door, this kid was --
20 struck first, smashed out the whole windshield, then he
21 smashes the door, then he smashes something -- I think the
22 windshield, I don't know. He just was smashing it. Just
23 smashing. Just hammering.
24 Q. All the driver's side and --
25 A. The whole driver's side of the truck, the door, the
1 windshield, I think the whole front windshield.
2 Q. Five you figure --
3 A. Four, five, at least five or six blows with this
4 axe. Full swing blows, looking to try and hurt somebody.
5 Q. Full swings to driver's side.
6 A. Yeah. So everybody's taking back --
7 Q. Now, what you said he almost hit your brother or --
8 A. Yes because -- yes.
9 Q. Was that the first one or --
10 A. He just started running at whoever was the nearest
11 person and --
12 Q. Right.
13 A. You know what I mean? And then he realized that
14 Kyle was trying to open the door and that he couldn't open
15 it, so he realized that was his opportunity to -- you know
16 what I mean? He couldn't open the door, so he knew that he
17 was trying to open the door, and so he came running after
18 him at that point in time knowing that the door was locked
19 and he could probably smash him, you know what I mean?
20 Q. Right.
21 A. Knowing what the situation was, I felt like. So as
22 soon as I unlocked the door and as soon as I unlocked the
23 door, Kyle opened it, jumped in, this kid's just a step
24 behind him, smashed the car.
25 Q. So the first strike was right where Kyle was getting
1 into the driver's seat -- is it a four-door truck or --
2 A. Yeah, it's a four door. It's an extended cab. You
3 have to pull -- you have to open up the driver's side to
4 open up the --
5 Q. Okay. So it was the driver's door?
6 A. Yeah, it was the driver's door. He opened up the
7 driver's door and he got in the driver's door.
8 Q. Got ya.
9 A. And just as he closed the driver's door to lock it,
10 this kid started smashing -- he's right there smashing
11 through. So he, Kyle, unloaded out the other side of the
12 truck. Having, you know, being in the truck and this kid
13 smashing the axe, comes out of the opposite side of the
14 truck. Now, you can picture the truck and people doing --
15 you know, he's, Vinnie's, running after Kyle around the
16 truck trying to hit him with this axe still, and Kyle is,
17 you know, trying to say, get back, get back. I think he
18 shot once or something and the kid still didn't -- he still
19 wouldn't get back. So they're running around the truck.
20 Q. So when Kyle gets out of the passenger side of the
21 truck, --
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. -- does Vinnie go after him or is he still hitting
24 the truck or --
25 A. Yeah, Vinnie's on the -- Vinnie's on the driver's
1 side at this point in time and the door is shut, and then
2 the passenger side he opens, he gets out of that, I'm pretty
3 -- 100 percent positive, --
4 Q. Uh-huh.
5 A. -- and like I said, Kyle comes over this way and
6 Vinnie circles around this way and then starts running after
7 him. Kyle runs over this way and says, Get back. Get back.
8 So at this point in time I think he -- I think Kyle shot
9 once into the ground and said, Get back. Get back. And the
10 kid still didn't get back. That's all I know. There was a
11 second gun that was in the truck --
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 A. -- at this point in time, okay. Now, if you got the
14 truck here --
15 Q. Hang on. You know what, let me give you a -- let me
16 give you a fresh piece of paper and I'll have you –- you can
17 draw this, if you want. There you go.
18 A. Now, if you got the truck here with the doors open.
19 Here's this kid. Here's Kyle or whatever, here's Kyle, and
20 here's the gun. Kyle's got one gun. This kid's over here,
21 psycho, with a bat or whatever.
22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. And then here's the other guy, two doors open.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Here I am. I know what was going on.
1 Q. Is this the -- this is the front of the truck?
2 A. Yeah, front of the truck. Here's the tent. Here's
3 the parking lot.
4 Q. So --
5 A. No, the truck -- if here's the parking lot, the
6 truck was parked like this, you know. So this kid -- here's
7 the tent, here's the field, here's the tent. He came
8 running this way. Everybody retreated back this way. Kyle
9 was trying to get into his door here and that's when he
10 smashed it. So Kyle jumped out this side, you know what I
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 A. And then this door was open, and this kid ran around
14 and Kyle ran around like this. And then this door was open.
15 The gun was laying right there.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Okay? Another gun.
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. And regardless of whether it's right, whatever, I
20 think it had a couple shells in it, I don't know.
21 Q. Right.
22 A. So I don't know what's going on. I don't want him
23 to get the gun.
24 Q. Vinnie?
25 A. Vinnie.
1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. Yeah, obviously, you know what I mean. He's psycho.
3 I don't know what he's going to do. If he gets this gun and
4 there are all these kids here, what is he going to do? I
5 don't know. So I run up and I grab this gun out of the car
6 and I run back here.
7 Q. Where's -- where's Tristan?
8 A. I don't know. He's running around. People are
9 running around. People that are involved in the whole
10 situation are just scared. Kyle is the only one, I don't
11 know if he's stupid, but he gets himself try to help out his
12 friends and --
13 Q. Yeah.
14 A. I'm saying people are just running around. People
15 were just running. There's people -- Tim and this -- Tim
16 Arbuckle, I think he ran off. This other kid ran off. You
17 know, I don't know where Kyle, my brother, went after this
18 situation -- no, that's what happened. I went and grabbed
19 the gun out of the -- the other gun out of the passenger
20 seat and ran back here.
21 Q. So --
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Let me back up a little bit. Just where I got my
24 notes here. Kyle gets out of the opposite side of the
1 A. Yup.
2 Q. Passenger side?
3 A. Yup. He grabbed one gun obviously because the kid
4 was swinging an axe.
5 Q. With gun. So Vinnie goes to that passenger side.
6 Is he still hitting the truck or is he going at Kyle or is
7 he going at somebody else?
8 A. No, he's running around the truck with the axe like
9 -- he's got the axe over his head and he's still -- he's not
10 hitting the truck at this point it in time. He was trying
11 to hit Kyle when Kyle was getting into the truck. That's
12 why it wasn't just trying do damage to the vehicle. He was
13 trying to do humanly damage.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. So he's running around at this point in time after
16 Kyle, okay. They're doing circles around the truck. That's
17 when I said, this ain't good. There's a gun in the middle
18 of the car and there's a door open. And there's a psycho on
19 one side of it.
20 Q. So he's chasing Kyle around the truck?
21 A. Yeah. And Kyle's the one with the gun and he's
22 going forward still, just pressing forward, still trying
23 to --
24 Q. What's Kyle saying to him?
25 A. Get back. Stop. Get back, he's saying, I think
1 that's what he's saying.
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. Get back. You know.
4 Q. So he's just trying to --
5 A. Self-defense. Get back. Stop fuckin' chasing me
6 with the thing, you know. Stop chasing -- that's what we
7 were all saying. The kid -- he charged at everybody trying
8 to beat everybody up with this, and he was just, like, you
9 know, get back. Get back. And he's still running after
10 him. That's when I ran up and grabbed this gun.
11 Q. Was there a shot before you grabbed the gun?
12 A. I think so. That's what I said. I think so. I
13 told you that, I think.
14 Q. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure.
15 A. I think -- I think -- I think there -- I think Kyle
16 said, Get back and shot into the ground first and this kid
17 still kept coming.
18 Q. So you think Kyle shot into the ground?
19 A. Just to warn him saying, get back, get back, get
20 back, and he kept coming. That's why I got scared as I'm a
21 bystander sitting back here with all these people, kids and
22 everything else.
23 Q. So you were concerned about –-
24 A. Well, I just –
25 Q. -- the other gun?
1 A. Yeah. I knew that there was another gun, and I knew
2 that both the doors were open, and this other gun is in the
3 truck and is in -- you know what I mean? I don't -- this
4 other -- I don't know if this kid knows it or whatever, but
5 if he looked up and saw a gun in the middle of the seat, you
6 know what I mean, what do you -- you know what I mean?
7 Worse situation, what do you think would -- you know what
8 could happen. I knew what could happen. I knew that this
9 kid could grab the gun and then try to -- and try to load it
10 and then try and -- you know. So I grabbed the gun, and I
11 recessed back, and he came running around the corner like
12 this at me. So I shot a shot into the ground.
13 Q. Which -- which side did you get the gun from?
14 A. Driver's side. Kyle was on this side. Kyle was on
15 the driver's side. While this other kid's on the passenger
16 side, I'm back here, you know what I mean? They were
17 running around, then I thought of it, and obviously I just
18 didn't want him to get the upper hand and grab a gun, so I
19 went and I grabbed the .22.
20 Q. So when you grabbed the .22, you're doing it from
21 the driver's side?
22 A. I grabbed it and ran back. I grabbed it and ran
23 back like this.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. So now I'm standing here, and he's here at the end
1 of this corner. He comes running this way.
2 Q. Okay. So you grabbed the gun?
3 A. See what I'm saying, he don't think anybody is going
4 to do anything with the gun.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. He doesn't think anybody is going to ever do
7 anything, so he's still pressing on with the axe at this
8 point in time. So I grabbed the gun just to get it out of
9 the situation so this kid doesn't not only have an axe and a
10 knife, he don't have a gun too.
11 Q. Now, when you grabbed the gun, you backed up?
12 A. Yup.
13 Q. Did you back up into the crowd or --
14 A. Well, I backed -- I just -- I grabbed it and I
15 backed up this way. You know, everybody was kind of like in
16 through here.
17 Q. Is that a tent?
18 A. The tent was here, the field was like this, there's
19 a tent right there.
20 Q. Okay. So you back up towards the tent?
21 A. Yeah, I back up towards the tent, but I'm not -- you
22 know, I'm not in the tent or whatever. There was a green
23 pickup truck right here, as a matter of fact. He came --
24 there was a green pickup truck right here. He came around
25 like this. I fired a shot into the ground and I recessed
1 back and put the gun right there on that pickup truck. And
2 Kyle came around -- that was when Kyle came around and was
3 like -- or this kid came around, he came around this side,
4 and Kyle went back around and he said, Get back, and that's
5 when I don't know what happened after that. I just heard a
7 Q. Okay. So hang on.
8 A. That was when that whole thing happened.
9 Q. Let me catch back up. We'll talk about Kyle. I
10 just want to make sure I got what you said about you right.
11 So you were concerned about the other gun in the truck. You
12 reached in from the driver's side and grab it. And that was
13 a .22?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Like, what kind of -- do you know what kind of .22?
16 A. It was just like a --
17 Q. Was it yours or was it --
18 A. No, it was Kyle's.
19 Q. Okay. But it's not a pistol, it's a rifle?
20 A. No, it's a rifle. It's just a squirrel hunting gun.
21 Q. Yeah. Yeah.
22 A. When you're out scouting you shoot, you know,
23 whatever. You just bring your .22.
24 Q. Okay. So you get the gun and you back up towards
25 the tent but not into it, is that --
1 A. Right. Right. Yup. I back up. I just back up,
2 like, probably 20 yards, you know, from the vehicle. I just
3 wanted to get out of the situation.
4 Q. Yeah, I understand.
5 A. The tent's over here. People are over at the fence,
6 the softball field, here's the tent right here. Here's this
7 vehicle right here, this green truck. I grabbed the gun and
8 ran back towards here.
9 Q. Were you behind the green truck or were you --
10 A. In front of it, like, near the bed of it. You know,
11 the truck's facing the tent.
12 Q. Okay. I got ya.
13 A. See what I'm saying?
14 Q. Yeah, I see.
15 A. The truck's facing this way. Kyle's truck's over
16 here. So I recede back towards this truck.
17 Q. And how far is the green truck from your brother
18 Kyle's truck?
19 A. I'd say probably 40 -- 30, 30 yards. I don't know.
20 It's hard -- there's quite a distance. You could see it if
21 you went to the crime scene right now. There's a definite
22 distance in between this truck and this truck.
23 Q. 30 to 40 yards you estimate?
24 A. Probably 30 yards, yeah.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. So but he's on this corner, you know what I mean?
2 It's kind of a ballsy situation. I grabbed it, and I came
3 back this way, and he started running around this way.
4 Q. So he starts coming around the front of the truck?
5 A. He starts coming around the front of the truck.
6 Q. Yup. And what's going on then when he's --
7 A. I'm back -- I'm back here.
8 Q. Yeah.
9 A. And he's over here.
10 Q. Yeah.
11 A. So I shot -- I just shot a shot into the ground
12 right here. I just went like this, "boom."
13 Q. Okay. How far -- how far was --
14 A. Vinnie was probably --
15 Q. -- Vinnie from you when you shoot in the ground?
16 A. Probably 20 -- 20 -- I don't know. It's hard.
17 Probably, like, 15, 20 yards I want to say. You know, plus
18 he's running in this direction. So, I mean, you know, when
19 somebody's running, he can close distance fast. I just shot
20 -- I just shot into the ground and dropped -- recessed into
21 this truck and dropped the gun. That's when Kyle and him
22 were still going around the vehicle at this point in time.
23 And he's still coming after him, still yelling stuff saying
24 he's gonna --
25 Q. So Vinnie's still chasing --
1 A. Still.
2 Q. -- Kyle?
3 A. Still.
4 Q. The whole time?
5 A. He doesn't think he's going to -- he doesn't think
6 nothing's going -- he doesn't anything's going to happen.
7 He thinks he's going to hit somebody with his frickin' axe.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. So I'm back in the crowd now with all these people.
10 Q. So you're back near this green truck?
11 A. Yeah. I dropped the gun right --
12 Q. Hang on. Hang on. Let me catch up with that just
13 so I make sure. You're near the green truck with the gun.
14 A. Yeah. I dropped it.
15 Q. Yeah, I haven't got there yet. Vinnie comes around
16 the front of the truck. Is he still chasing Kyle?
17 A. Yeah. He comes around this way. Kyle was right
18 here, and Kyle kept going around like this.
19 Q. Okay. So Vinnie --
20 A. It was either this or this way. I'm not sure.
21 All’s I know is that he got shot back here at this side of
22 the truck from Kyle, and I don't -- he was chasing him
23 around this way or this -- you know what I mean? Probably
24 this way.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. Makes more sense.
2 Q. So anyways, while you're near the green truck with
3 the .22, --
4 A. While I'm back here, he had came running around this
5 way, and then I think he ran back this way.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. You know, Kyle stepped up when I was receding back
8 because I didn't -- I don't really want to -- like I said,
9 I'm scared. I don't want to get myself into this situation.
10 I was just trying to defuse the situation by getting the gun
11 out of the area, you know what I mean?
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 A. Because seriously, you're in the middle between a
14 car that's open between this kid who's got a gun who's
15 psycho and -- you know what I mean?
16 Q. Uh-huh.
17 A. I just grabbed it to just to hopefully save lives is
18 all I was thinking, saving lives. To tell you the truth, at
19 that point in time that's the only reason I grabbed the .22.
20 Otherwise, it would have sat right there if the truck was
21 locked up, but the kid smashed the windows out and was
22 running around the thing trying to grab anything he could
23 and any leverage he could over everybody. He was ready to
24 take on 25 people at one time, you know, not obviously --
25 he's raged out.
1 So then all’s I know is I'm back here and I heard a
2 shot, and then people are screaming out, we started calling
3 911. Kyle's, like, oh -- he didn't know what to do. I'm,
4 like, what the fuck did you just do, you know? This --
5 what's going on? He's, like, I didn't know -- the kid was
6 trying to swing the axe, trying to swing an axe at me and
7 wouldn't stop. This is when we called 911 and --
8 Q. Um, so when you fire, Vinnie's chasing Kyle?
9 A. No. He came around the --
10 Q. He came around the front of the truck?
11 A. I'm saying I was on the front of the truck. I had
12 just grabbed the gun and I came back this way and he started
13 coming around this way.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That's when I thought, he's coming after me, he's
16 coming after me, you know what I mean?
17 Q. Did you shoot --
18 A. So I'm recessing and I just go like this, "boom."
19 Q. So you're backpedaling?
20 A. Backpedaling, yeah. I'm backpedaling, and I shoot,
21 and I just go back to the truck. You know, at this point in
22 time I'm backpedaling towards the truck. I didn't even want
23 to be in the situation. I'm just trying to get out of the
24 situation. Like I told you, I don't even know who this kid
1 Q. Right.
2 A. I don't even know -- I'm just trying to -- I was
3 just trying to get my buddy out of being scared, that's all
4 I was trying to do, not trying to go there and start any
5 fights. They told me to go down to the softball field and
6 they were going to talk to this kid, not do -- not what
7 happened is all I'm saying, you know.
8 Q. Um --
9 A. I was scared for my own life at the point in time
10 where he came around the corner with a frickin' -- swinging
11 a maul at everything. That's why I grabbed that gun and
12 started (inaudible), and that's why I just shot in the
13 ground. And then I had nothing to do with it. I put the
14 gun down and I was, like, you know, and Kyle was still
15 engaging with him at this point in time and they were
16 drawing back and forth. He, I'm from Boston, I don't --
17 Q. Um, --
18 A. I'm trying to remember everything I can.
19 Q. Yeah, I know. I know. It sounds like it was a big
20 cluster and it happened fast. How far in front of you do
21 you think you shot into the ground?
22 A. Not far. It was right in front of me.
23 Q. I mean, would you have come close to shooting your
24 own foot or --
25 A. No. I was probably from here to -- I was probably
1 five or six feet away. It was like that, right into the --
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. He was probably 20 yards from me --
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. -- at this point in time. But he was running, you
6 know, towards me. And I just -- I was back here. I told
7 you I shot right there. He was, like, right here or
8 whatever and he kept going around. He was flying. Kept
9 going. I had nothing -- I didn't touch the kid. I just
10 shot into the ground hoping it would defer him away from
11 running from my area. That's the only reason I shot. I
12 wasn't trying to shoot anywhere -- anywhere close to him.
13 You see what I'm saying?
14 Q. Yup.
15 A. I wasn't shooting in his area. I was shooting at
16 the ground trying to just scare him. Like, I would be
17 scared if anybody shot a shot. I'd run the fuckin' other
19 Q. Right. So you figure five, six feet, is that what
20 you said, you shot in front of you?
21 A. From away from me, yeah.
22 Q. And Vinnie was about, what would you say, 15 to 20
23 yards away?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. At the time you -- at the time --
1 A. I can't really measure the distance is what I'm
3 Q. No, I know.
4 A. Yeah, he was probably 20 or 30 yards.
5 Q. Well, were you concerned that the bullet would have
6 hit Vinnie?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I knew it wasn't going to hit Vinnie. I didn't want
10 to shoot Vinnie. I didn't want to shoot anybody. I was
11 trying to simply put the noise into action and tell him --
12 and hopefully he didn't -- which he did. He kept going
13 around the truck towards my brother still trying to get him.
14 That's the point. He didn't think we were going to do
16 Q. Right.
17 A. That's why.
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. We shot into the ground and he just still thought
20 that -- said, I'm from Boston. I've been stabbed.
21 Q. Right. So when you shoot the warning shot, what's
22 your goal? What do you hope happens when that happens?
23 A. I told ya, I'm hoping he doesn't come towards me and
24 try to rifle me with his axe, that's all I was trying to do
25 is defer him away from running towards me because he started
1 running around the front of the car, and I told you I was at
2 this front of the car backpedaling, and I thought he was
3 going to run towards me. I thought he was going to run and
4 try and hit me, you know. He'd already came this whole
5 distance from the parking lot, which is over here, running
6 with this bat, then he just barely missed Kyle, smashing
7 him, then he started running around trying to smash
8 everybody that was around. I didn't even know who this kid
10 Q. I know.
11 A. Like I said, I just grabbed --
12 Q. So after you shoot the .22, what do you do with the
14 A. Put it in this. I set it on this other -- this
15 green truck that's in front of the tent, and I'm back at the
16 tent with everybody else.
17 Q. You put it -- is it in the bed, on the --
18 A. Yeah, yeah.
19 Q. -- on the hood?
20 A. Like, yeah, I think there's a tool box or there's a
21 bed. I don't even know where that gun is. Somebody said
22 that it got back in the truck after that. I have no idea.
23 I have no idea what happened to this gun after this point in
24 time. I put it on there and I recessed. I was done.
25 Q. So you think it was in the bed or on the tool box?
1 A. Yeah, yeah.
2 Q. Where you left it?
3 A. In the back of this truck. Not -- it was in the
4 back of this truck somewhere. All’s I knew is it was out of
5 the way from this kid to grab it and that's all I cared
7 Q. And after you put it down, where do you go?
8 A. I was just back in the tent area --
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. -- talking. I mean, everybody was back here freaked
12 Q. Okay. So after --
13 A. And then, I don't know, I just heard running and
14 then a shot and then that's all I heard. I was back -- I
15 was back in the tent. I didn't even -- I really didn't even
16 see where he got shot or what happened. I was running away.
17 I was scared. And you get in that situation, it's not like
18 you want to try to be a tough guy, I didn't feel like. I
19 didn't want to be a tough guy, you know.
20 Q. So after you shoot, you put the gun --
21 A. Down in the truck.
22 Q. -- down and you back up into the tent with other
23 people? Was there other people still there?
24 A. Yeah. There was -- yeah, other people were back
25 against the fence and stuff, you know, which is, like, 50
1 yards at least from where Kyle's truck was, you know.
2 Q. Do you see Kyle fire another shot?
3 A. I didn't. I just heard it. I just heard "boom." I
4 was scared, honestly, like I keep telling you, I was scared
5 for my own safety's sake at that point in time. I just
6 wanted -- I just tried to get the gun and backpedal, then he
7 started running towards me so I shot into the ground,
8 dropped the gun and ran back. I just started running back
9 towards the fence. I was back towards the fence, you know,
10 trying to just get out of the situation, you know, just
11 trying to leave. That was all I wanted to do at that point
12 in time. That was all my goal was was just to get out of
13 there. I didn't even want to be there in the first place.
14 I didn't even want to pull down there. I didn't even -- I
15 didn't even know who this kid was, officer. I didn't even
16 know why we were even into this --
17 Q. No, yeah. Yeah.
18 A. -- situation in the first place.
19 Q. I understand that.
20 A. It was like --
21 Q. So you don't hear Kyle shoot the last shot –- well,
22 you hear it?
23 A. No, I hear it. I didn't see him.
24 Q. That's what I meant. You didn't see it.
25 A. I'm saying this kid ran around and Kyle ran around
1 like this. What happened was I think this kid ran around, I
2 ran back, and I think Kyle ran around this way. I think the
3 kid ran back this way, and then I think he started to come
4 after Kyle again, and then that's when -- I mean that's -- I
5 was trying to retreat, and I can't tell you exactly what
6 happened from that point on.
7 Q. Counting the gun you had and the gun Kyle had, how
8 many shots did you hear fired?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Well, did you shoot more than once?
11 A. I don't think so. It was a semiautomatic,
12 semiautomatic gun, but I think I shot once.
13 Q. Okay. Are you sure you shot once or --
14 A. I'm pretty -- I'm --
15 Q. I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there. So I'm just
16 -- I'm just trying to get you to count how many shots you
17 remember hearing or how many you shot or how many you heard
18 Kyle shoot.
19 When you took the gun out of the truck, did you have
20 to load it?
21 A. Yeah. I mean, I just -- I just pulled the thing
23 Q. The bolt?
24 A. Yeah -- not the bolt. It's a semiautomatic. You
25 pull it back and --
1 Q. Well, yeah, I call it the bolt.
2 A. Yeah, the bolt, yeah.
3 Q. So the -- was it a clip magazine or is it a tube
4 magazine? What kind of a gun is it, what brand?
5 A. Just load it in the tube, you know.
6 Q. So it's probably a Marlin?
7 A. Yup, Marlin. There was just -- there was, like, I
8 don't know, I don't know how many -- I don't know. They had
9 the gun earlier he was with it, he carries one with him
10 usually, --
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. -- you know what I'm saying, in the rifle rack.
13 He's a hunter.
14 Q. He Kyle or Jerry?
15 A. Kyle.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. This is his truck we're in.
18 Q. Okay. So that was Kyle's .22?
19 A. Kyle's .22.
20 Q. Kyle's rifle?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Or his other -- what was the other rifle?
23 A. Just a high powered rifle.
24 Q. Do you know what caliber?
25 A. I don't know. I think it was an aught six or
2 Q. Okay. So that would be much louder than the
4 A. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
5 Q. How many shots do you recall Kyle shooting?
6 A. I think two, officer. I don't remember. I'm pretty
7 sure I shot -- I shot one. I don't honestly -- I was just
8 running back, and I shot once into the ground or -- it's
9 honestly such a big blur right now that I can't even tell
10 you how fast this shit went.
11 Q. So you think you only --
12 A. Seems like there was three or four shots, seems like
13 there was four shots, but I only thought I shot once and he
14 thought twice is what I thought, but that's only three
16 Q. Right.
17 A. So, I mean, --
18 Q. Well, do you think you may have shot more than once?
19 A. I don't think I did. I'm saying it's a
20 semiautomatic and you're pointing it towards the ground. If
21 you went "poom, poom." Trying to think if that's what
22 happened or not. I'm trying to go back to that situation
23 and think.
24 Q. Well, take your time. I'm not rushing you to come
25 up with an answer.
1 A. I think -- all I'm saying is I think I shot one
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Is what I think.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. But I know that I was pointing towards the ground
7 way before him, and I know that I didn't even aim the gun at
9 Q. So you think you only shot once?
10 A. I mean, I think he shot twice.
11 Q. But are you saying if you -- I'm sorry.
12 A. I think he shot twice and I think I shot once.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever point the .22 at this Vinnie
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you point it at anybody there?
17 A. No. Why would I do that, officer?
18 Q. I'm just asking just so I can say I asked it and,
19 you know, --
20 A. No, I definitely did not.
21 Q. -- so later --
22 A. I definitely would not.
23 Q. If somebody --
24 A. That's one question that makes me a little --
25 obviously not. I was trying to defuse the situation by
1 getting the gun. I mean, like I said, the door was open in
2 between the gun and everybody. What happens if he just
3 decides to grab this gun out of the car and it's sitting
5 Q. I understand that.
6 A. Then all of a sudden you've got some mad man with a
7 gun and everybody there being, like, oh, oh, and here's this
8 kid's just got a gun saying he wanted to kill Gibb and
9 everybody else that was there. That's why I was, like, this
10 ain't good. He's running around the car and there's a gun
11 still in there. What happens if -- that's what I'm saying.
12 I mean, I thought -- I think that was a pretty smart thing
13 to do at the time. I would think anybody else would grab
14 and do the same thing, you know, and trying to get the gun
15 out of the hands of somebody who's going to shoot somebody
16 with it, because I would never, ever, ever point a gun at
17 somebody, let alone shoot somebody. I'm not saying, you
18 know, well, my brother -- I mean, that has nothing to do
19 with me. I'm saying I wouldn't.
20 Q. Well, I understand.
21 A. It wasn't my situation to begin with. I just --
22 Q. Nobody wants to shoot anybody.
23 A. No.
24 Q. But that's why I was asking.
25 A. Somebody feels threatened -- I'm saying I felt
1 threatened, but I just was trying to run away, not stand up
2 for myself. I was just trying to get and run away.
3 Q. Look at me. Listen to what I'm saying though. This
4 is why I'm just trying to clear this up for you, okay. I
5 know that you told me you shot a warning shot, okay. But
6 what I was asking was did you point the gun at him and then
7 put it down and fire the warning shot? That's what I'm
8 saying. Was it pointed at him at any time --
9 A. No.
10 Q. -- so he could see the threat, holy shit, there's a
11 gun pointed at me, --
12 A. No.
13 Q. -- and then you shoot into the ground?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. So it was always pointed at the ground?
16 A. Yeah. Yeah. I was backpedaling. I never pointed
17 the gun at that kid at all.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Because it's simply that I -- like I told you, I
20 don't believe in that.
21 Q. Is there any way a bullet from the .22 that you
22 shot, any way a .22 round could have hit him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was the -- I mean, was your muzzle anywhere near
25 him --
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- that would have hit him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. I mean, I don't -- that's the thing I don't
6 understand. Obviously they can tell what hit somebody,
8 Q. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that's been done.
9 A. Well, yeah, obviously.
10 Q. I mean, it will be done, I would presume.
11 A. Yeah, I'm just saying --
12 Q. It hasn't. That's why I'm just asking you. Is
13 there any way a .22 from that rifle would have hit that
14 Vinnie guy?
15 A. Un-un.
16 Q. No way?
17 A. No way.
18 Q. Okay. That's fine. That's just so we both know
19 that we've covered that.
20 A. No way. Because I shot, like I said, five feet
21 before me, not -- you see where he -- did you see where he
22 was -- this was -- he got shot back here. He came around,
23 you know what I mean, he was shot back here. He came around
24 this way. I shot my shots into the ground right here. So
25 obviously he was, you know, had no impact. He was still
1 trying to get after Kyle, --
2 Q. Was he -- was he --
3 A. -- which is over here.
4 Q. Was there a clear path of sight between you and him
5 when you fired, or was he on the other side of the truck?
6 You know what I'm saying? Was there a barrier in between
7 you guys when your gun went off?
8 A. I'm back here -- I'm back here. No, there's just 30
9 yards, like I told you. There's not, like, a -- he was
10 around the fender. He just barely came around the fender.
11 Q. So it was a clear, --
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. -- nothing obstructing?
14 A. No. Just I'm talking 30 yards worth of grass.
15 Q. Right, okay.
16 A. And in order to hit him, I would have been pointing
17 at him. I wasn't. I was backpedaling towards the truck
18 trying to get out of the situation is all I was trying to
20 Q. So you're back in the crowd when Kyle's gun goes
22 A. Yeah, I guess.
23 Q. What -- what's everybody saying? I mean, what's
24 going on? I know it's crazy.
25 A. Everybody's freaked out, sir. I can't explain to
1 you the situation, I really cannot.
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. I just can't. I can't sit here and tell you that
4 I've been there and I know I can't -- I can't tell you.
5 Obviously, like I told you, I'd been working all day. I
6 never expected this in a million years. I can't explain to
7 you. I'm back in the crowd at this point in time. I'm just
8 happy to be out of the way.
9 Q. Yeah.
10 A. Happy to be out of there. And then I heard that
11 shot, and then I was scared for -- I didn't know what the
12 hell happened. So everybody was looking around and the kid
13 was on the ground going like this --
14 Q. Did you see him fall on the ground?
15 A. No. I just --
16 Q. From where you were?
17 A. No. He was just on the -- I looked -- I heard the
18 shot, and I went around this side of the tent. Obviously
19 there was some stuff obstructing from this side, so I went
20 over to this side, and everybody could just see him just
21 laying there, and that's when we all called -- people called
22 and let everybody know. And I just stayed there. Didn't
23 try to run, didn't try to go anywhere, didn't try to move.
24 I just was, like, it will be best if I just sit here and try
25 to explain what happened because I knew that I didn't feel
1 like I was at -- you know, I was scared for my life. I just
2 don't understand what person is supposed to do if somebody
3 like that is coming after them with a bat like that. What
4 do you do? What do you do?
5 Q. You said you didn't see Vinnie fall, but did you say
6 you moved -- it sounded like you said you moved your
7 position in the tent, and then you were able to see him on
8 the ground?
9 A. No. Yeah, yeah. Well, I was back this way and
10 after I -- I mean, after I heard the shot, everybody came
11 over to see what was going --
12 Q. Right, okay.
13 A. –- like, what happened. So, you know, --
14 Q. What happened then?
15 A. Nothing. Like I told you, people called the cops.
16 The kid was laying there. People were freaked out.
17 Everybody was freaked out. Everybody didn't know what to
19 Q. Did you have a phone? I mean, did you call 911
20 or --
21 A. I don't have a phone. I don't have a cell phone. I
22 don't have any phones, --
23 Q. That's right.
24 A. -- otherwise I would have.
25 Q. That's right.
1 A. I don't own a cell phone. I have nothing. I was
2 just trying to -- I just was, like, I'd like to get out of
3 here, but then I was, like, that's not a very good idea now,
4 is it? So plus I'd had a couple beers and I didn't want to
5 drive out of there and --
6 Q. How long a time are we looking at from the time this
7 starts until the time --
8 A. But I never told anybody that this kid 15 minutes
9 before he met us at the ballpark went up to Mike Gleason's
10 house, which you have his name, who was there the night
11 before when Gibb got knocked out, and like I told you, he
12 was looking for everybody one by one, 15 minutes before he
13 showed up down here he went up to Mike Gleason's house
14 trying to rip him out of the house telling him he was going
15 to fight him.
16 Q. Who did you hear that from?
17 A. From this -- from Jordan. And Jordan was there with
19 Q. At the --
20 A. At Mike Gleason's, yes, they were there at Mike
21 Gleason's and the kid showed up.
22 Q. Jordan, Gibb and Mike?
23 A. Jordan, Gibb, yup. And then Mike lives there. He
24 lives -- you know, this is here. Mike lives right here.
25 You know, Main Street comes down, and then you turn into
1 this ball field down here.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Mike lives right here. So before he went here, he
4 went in here and was trying to start a fight with Mike, and
5 Mike's -- who is a good size kid, Mike's scared of this kid
6 too. I mean, he's a big --
7 Q. How -- how -- hang on. How do you know that he was
8 at Mike's? Who did you hear that from?
9 A. From Jordan and Mike.
10 Q. And when did you hear that?
11 A. We talked to Mike.
12 Q. When?
13 A. Like, right before we got here.
14 Q. After this or before this?
15 A. No, right before we got there.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. That's why we knew he was coming down there. We
18 went down here to talk with him, and he goes, he's coming
19 that way. He'll be there.
20 Q. Did you talk to him in person or --
21 A. No, Kyle and Jerry talked to Mike, okay?
22 Q. Yup.
23 A. Kyle and Jerry talked to Mike.
24 Q. On the cell phone?
25 A. On a cell phone. Kyle and Jerry.
1 Q. That's where I was going with the whole thing.
2 A. Kyle has a cell phone. Kyle and Jerry work in
3 Bondville, Vermont and so does Mike, so they're friends, you
4 know, they're friends. And he had just showed up at Mike
5 Gleason's house trying to beat him up, threatening him with
6 everything he had. And Mike said, you know, I don't know --
7 I had nothing to do with this. So then he came down to the
8 ball field.
9 Q. So Jordan and Gibb were at Mike's?
10 A. Yeah, I guess. That's what I heard.
11 Q. Yeah.
12 A. I mean, that's -- Jordan later on told me that she
13 witnessed that. And Mike had called us and told us that
14 that's what happened, is that he came there, that he was
15 trying to assault him and saying, like I told you, he said
16 he was going to get everybody that was involved and --
17 Q. So they told you that Vinnie was headed towards the
18 ballpark, is that what you were saying?
19 A. Yeah, I guess. They said --
20 Q. I know you didn't talk --
21 A. -- watch out. He's going to be looking for you guys
22 or something like that.
23 Q. Yeah. Yeah.
24 A. All’s I know is I was going to meet Tim, want to
25 talk to Tim. That's I all I knew. So that's the only
1 reason I pulled down there. Not to think that anything else
2 was going to happen, that this stuff was going to happen.
3 Q. And that was Jerry's idea to go see Tim, is that --
4 A. Well, Jerry and Tim are good friends so --
5 Q. Yeah.
6 A. So Jerry had talked to Tim or something.
7 Q. How much did you have to drink today? I know you
8 said that you'd had a couple drinks so you weren't planning
9 on driving.
10 A. Yeah. I had a couple beers there, but Tristan drove
11 down there.
12 Q. Like, I mean, when did you -- when did you have the
13 first --
14 A. I got there, I had a couple shots. I had three
15 shots down there while I was –- like, between the time and
16 that was 20 minutes after we got there.
17 Q. "Down there" where though?
18 A. Down to the ball field.
19 Q. You had three shots at the ball field?
20 A. Yup.
21 Q. Okay. Did you have any shots or drinks prior to
23 A. No.
24 Q. From the time you left work today?
25 A. No. I hadn't been drinking, no.
1 Q. Until you got to the ball field?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Three shots?
4 A. Three shots. And then I had another beer. I had a
5 beer and a half probably since I was there too.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I had, like, three -- I was driving, then Tristan
8 started driving.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. So then I started drinking.
11 Q. Did you have anything after the incident?
12 A. No. I had a beer with me going on while the --
13 like, after the incident I cracked a beer, and then the next
14 thing I know the cops are saying, everybody get down, so I
15 just threw my beer and that was that. I probably had three
16 beers or two beers and three shots altogether within that
17 20-minute period of time. Not two full beers, but I had
18 cracked two beers.
19 Q. A beer and a half or --
20 A. Yeah, I cracked -- I drank a beer and I cracked a
21 second one and I told you I threw it so --
22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. On the lawn. Just dropped it because they said
24 everybody --
25 Can I go to the bathroom, if that's all right?
1 Q. Yeah, we'll make that happen, I guess.
2 Whatever happened to Tristan? I mean, did you see
3 any of the guys that you showed up with? Did you talk with
4 Jerry after? Did you talk with Kyle? Did you talk with
6 A. No, I don't know where -- I don't know where they
7 disappeared to. I don't know where Tristan disappeared to.
8 I don't know where Tim Arbuckle disappeared to. I don't
9 know, Kyle was just, like, running around freaked out being,
10 like, I don't know what to do. He was, like, we should get
11 out of here, and I was, like, no, I'm not going anywhere.
12 Q. Did he try leaving or did he leave?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. Okay. So you told Kyle to stay?
15 A. No, I didn't tell him anything, officer. I can't
16 tell you -- I can't tell my brother what to do. I can't
17 tell him that. I was freaked out hiding back here, you
19 Q. Right.
20 A. Kyle was, like, let's get out of here. And I said,
21 no, because I'm not going to run from -- and, you know, --
22 you know, at that point in time I thought I was just a
23 bystander in this whole thing, that's what I'm telling you.
24 So I was, like, I'm not leaving. He said, well, we should
25 leave. I was, like, no, we shouldn't leave, you know, this
1 is -- all this just happened, I'm not going to leave, you
3 Q. Looks bad.
4 A. Yeah, yeah, looks bad.
5 Q. Yeah.
6 A. I mean, I don't know -- I mean, just -- he was just
7 scared, obviously. I was scared too.
8 Q. Sure.
9 A. But I didn't think that, you know, trying to avoid
10 the situation is a good idea. So I stayed and then -- but I
11 think he may have been walking out -- I don't know. I think
12 he was up towards the front. I think --
13 Q. Okay. Okay. No, I'm just asking if you knew.
14 A. You know, I was back here and they were back here.
15 It was confusing. I was just fending for myself, doing what
16 I thought was best for myself, not putting -- being, like,
17 oh, well, what's going to happen with everybody else, you
18 know. I was just freaked out over the whole situation,
19 couldn't even believe it even happened, and I was just
20 trying, you know, --
21 Q. Did you talk to -- other than other cops or anything
22 like that, after this happened did you talk to anybody? I
23 know you said you got ahold of a beer. I mean, did you have
24 to go somewhere to get that, or was it all in the tent,
25 A. No, there was beer there.
1 Q. -- or did you talk to anybody about what happened?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Anybody come up to you and ask you questions or --
4 A. No, everybody was freaked out. Everybody wasn't
5 saying anything besides --
6 Q. People start filing out of there quick, I bet?
7 A. Some people left. I don't really -- I don't think
8 many people left. I don't -- I don't -- I honestly I don't
9 know how. I'm trying to be as honest I can and tell you
10 everything I can, but if I can't tell you something, I'm not
11 going to sit here and try to tell you about what I think --
12 Q. No, I don't want you to.
13 A. I don't. I don't. I don't know. I don’t know. I
14 was freaked out.
15 Q. Can you describe the --
16 A. I ran back --
17 Q. -- the axe that he had?
18 A. It just seemed like a double-sided maul, big, like,
19 five-pound sledge.
20 Q. What color was it?
21 A. Wood handle, that's all I know.
22 Q. Just a wooden handle?
23 A. Just a wooden huge -- a wooden handled maul.
24 Q. Yeah.
25 A. Axe or a splitting maul, you know. It's either a
1 double-sided maul or it was an axe. I don't know. One of
2 the two. I wasn't close enough to find out, thank God.
3 Q. Yeah. Anything else you think of that I should
5 DETECTIVE TROOPER TRUDEAU: Take a break for a sec,
6 and then I don't know what I have for follow-up questions.
7 I think I'll get you to the bathroom. I don't know which
8 bathroom they use here, so just give me a sec to run out and
9 check with one of the other troopers and we'll come back. I
10 just want to go over a couple of these points, and then
11 that's it, then we'll get out of here, okay?
12 COREY BOLASKI: Sure.
13 DETECTIVE TROOPER TRUDEAU: Fair enough? Let me
14 just stop my recorder here.
15 (Brief recess)
16 Q. Okay. We're back at twenty-three -- just let me
17 thumb through my notes quick just to see if I've got any
18 follow-up questions, all right.
19 So I just want to go over the time line once more,
20 okay? I think I got it down, but correct me if I'm wrong or
21 add what you got to add, all right. You get out of work at
22 2:30 today. You, Jerry, Kyle, go in Kyle's truck scouting
23 for deer season?
24 A. Yup. I'd gotten -- got out of work about 2:15,
25 2:30, and we were in Springfield. Me and my dad went back
1 to my house. Kyle and Jerry had been working at my parents'
2 house, saw them, and they're, like, oh, let's go, you know,
3 set up some scouting cameras, whatever. Let's go look for
4 some deer. Said, all right. I've got nothing to do. I was
5 going to go perch fishing this afternoon everything else.
6 Said, all right. Sounded like an all right time. I hadn't
7 hung out with those guys. I'd hadn't hung out with my
8 brother and Jerry in months.
9 Q. How old is your brother?
10 A. He's 24.
11 Q. So he lives in Springfield?
12 A. He lives in Chester. Me and Kyle both live in
13 Chester. I live in the downstairs apartment with my
14 girlfriend, he lives upstairs, my mom has a business.
15 Q. Oh, okay.
16 A. In Chester.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Across from Squatty’s.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. There's two apartments there. So we then went back
21 to Chester. We went out by Popple Dungeon. We scouted out
22 by that area, Popple Dungeon. We had no -- I mean, I had
23 briefly heard about all this has happened, and we were just
24 doing that, and then we went back to the house, my place,
25 and it was probably 5:00.
1 Q. Uh-huh.
2 A. Probably around 5:00 that I went back there and went
3 and told Jess, my girlfriend, what I was doing. We were
4 planning on going to Springfield and going -- because that's
5 where my dad lives at Walnut Orchard -- I mean, Walnut Hill
6 Court, we were going to go up by the apple orchard up there
7 where we hunt every year and go and look for deer up there
8 around sunset, that's what we were planning on doing.
9 I had gotten -- I had just I had just left the place
10 and I was headed up Trebo, took the right towards Trebo
11 right from my house, it's only, like, you know, two, 300
12 yards down the road, that I just probably turned down the
13 road and that's when we got the phone call from Tristan and
14 he was bawling, scared. So that was probably around
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. He was scared as hell. So that's when I turned --
18 Kyle's, like, you got to turn around, he's all scared. It's
19 like, all right. Well, I guess we'll go pick him up, and I
20 thought we were just going to bring him up to Springfield
21 and just try to avoid the situation, you know.
22 Q. Right. Um, how long from the time you picked
23 Tristan up, you guys picked Tristan up -- where's Tristan
24 live again? I'm just --
25 A. He lives --
1 Q. He's in Chester?
2 A. Yeah. I was driving at that point in time, then I
3 went back there to Tristan's and I was, like, well, you
4 might as well drive, and so he was driving.
5 Q. Okay. So Tristan was driving Kyle's truck?
6 A. Yup.
7 Q. Okay. Was Kyle -- had Kyle been drinking at any
8 point that you saw? I mean, I'm asking that because I'm
9 asking why isn't Kyle driving his own truck?
10 A. I think -- yeah, I think so earlier on that day I
11 think he was. I don't know. Like I said, that wasn't my
12 truck. I was with my dad, and he was in his truck, then we
13 went back to Chester and we were still in his truck. We
14 weren't drinking any alcohol at this point in time. Then I
15 just started to drive it. I don't even -- I just did. I
16 don't even know why. I was, like, can I drive your truck?
17 He's, like, yeah, sure. Here, here are the keys.
18 Q. Now, when did your dad come into play?
19 A. Me and my dad were working together all morning.
20 Q. Oh, okay. I didn't realize you worked with your
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. So I worked for my old man, and my brother and Jerry
25 were back at his house doing landscaping at my dad's house.
1 You know what I mean? We were at a different job, and we
2 came back to get some trash, and Kyle was there with Jerry.
3 And they said, oh, we're going to go out and do this, look
4 for deer. And I was, like, that sounds good. I'm going to
5 take the rest of the day off anyhow at 2:30. So I went I
6 just, like, told my dad I'm just going to go with these
8 Q. Yeah.
9 A. So that's when we came to Chester and went to Popple
10 Dungeon and went scouting and everything.
11 Q. Got ya.
12 A. Then we came back to Chester around 5:00, and we
13 still -- none of us had drank anything by then.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And then after that we went to the store and went to
16 Tristan's. And then --
17 Q. Did you guys get anything to drink at the store?
18 A. No. We just -- we had some beers I think I had had
19 at my house and he had had at his house.
20 Q. Okay. So did you go back to your house to drink or
21 did you --
22 A. No. We just went back to my house after we went
23 Popple Dungeon and grabbed those beers and grabbed -- you
24 know, and then we left and then that was --
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. -- that was when we started drinking. He started
2 drinking, I think, Kyle and Jerry, and Tristan started
3 driving so -- or later on, a little bit after that point in
4 time, after we picked him up, he started driving so --
5 Q. How long -- excuse me.
6 A. That's probably around, like, 6:00 probably by the
7 time we got ahold of Mike and he had said that this kid had
8 just been here, you know, --
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. -- and then you're 15 minutes after --
11 Q. That's where I was going with this. About 5:00 you
12 talked to Tristan?
13 A. 5:00 then --
14 Q. About what time do you pick him up?
15 A. Probably around 5:15-ish, 5:30.
16 Q. Shortly after?
17 A. Shortly after. And then we were just in Chester.
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. I went and got gas, I think, we went and got gas,
20 and we were just right in Chester. And then we got a phone
21 call from Mike saying that he had just been there at Mike's
22 house, and so that's when -- or Jerry had called him --
23 Jerry -- like I said, Jerry had called Kirby, you know what
24 I mean, somewhere in between there while I was in the store
25 I even said, and said let's meet this kid. So it was
1 somewhere in between there. But they said -- like I told
2 you, he said that he wanted to meet up with this kid, which
3 I don't understand why he wanted to meet up with him anyhow
4 since, you know, --
5 Q. Right. Do you know -- what time did you guys get to
6 the ball field? I mean, do you have --
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. I know you don't wear a watch.
9 A. Probably around -- like I said, it was probably
10 around six.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. It wasn't very long. Like I said, it all went down
13 within probably an hour from when I picked Tristan up at
14 5:15. So we're talking, you know, 6:15-ish.
15 Q. Oh, wow.
16 A. Six, 6:15 is when we were at the ball field, I'm
17 pretty sure. You know, we didn't really do too much. This
18 kid was driving by Tristan's house. And then we picked
19 Tristan up, went for a little cruise around, went to the
20 store to get gas, and then it was, like, you know, Jerry was
21 trying to get ahold of this kid and talk to him, then he
22 called --
23 Q. So did --
24 A. -- Jerry's phone and talked Kirby.
25 Q. Jerry -- Jerry called Kirby then?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Was Jerry on his phone? Did he borrow your
3 brother's phone?
4 A. Brother Kyle's -- probably Kyle's or -- I know, he
5 borrowed Tristan's because Tristan had this kid's number, I
6 guess, from before or something. I don't know if it was
7 Kyle's or -- I couldn't tell you the truth, but it was
8 somebody's cell phone, either Tristan's or Kyle's, because
9 Jerry don't have a cell phone and I don't have a cell phone.
10 All’s I know is Tristan and Kyle do have cell phones, and
11 Kyle doesn't have Kirby's number, so it had to have come
12 from Tristan's cell phone. Do you see what I'm saying?
13 Because Tristan's got the number in there for Kirby and Kyle
14 doesn't. So in order to get that number, it had to have
15 been dialed from Tristan's cell phone, which Jerry was in
16 the back with Tristan at this point in time when we had
17 first picked him up is what I'm saying.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. He's in the back. Then we went to the store, then
20 Tristan started driving. Then from that point in time I
21 couldn't tell you --
22 Q. So Jerry probably used Tristan's phone to call
23 Kirby, is that --
24 A. Probably, yeah.
25 Q. -- fair to say?
1 A. Probably. Trying to just ask this kid what his
2 problem was and tell him to cut it out, you know, tell him
3 to chill out, you know what I mean? You know, because he
4 was driving by, like I said, driving by Tristan's house,
5 kept driving up and down the road. So what do you want, you
6 know. He said he was going to knock Tristan's teeth into
7 the back of his skull or something like that, he was going
8 to beat the shit out of him. Like I said, this kid's a big
9 kid so he was scared. As far as these little details it's,
10 like, I can't sit here and tell you what these little
11 details are because I was --
12 Q. Well, I'm not asking you for all the details.
13 A. Well, all I'm saying I can't give you -- I wasn't
14 wearing a watch and I don't have a cell phone. I can't tell
15 you the exact time. I'm just going by, you know, time line
16 of what I thought.
17 Q. Yeah. No, I told you right from the beginning when
18 we started that I wasn't pressing you to the minute. I'm
19 just getting you to estimate time. I don't know what the
20 time line was so, I mean, it sounds like you got a pretty
21 good handle on it. I mean, it sounds like it wasn't very
22 long from the time you picked Tristan up until this whole
23 thing ended up --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- blowing up at the ballpark. I mean, based on
1 what you're telling me, that's what it sounds like.
2 A. No, it wasn't long. I don't know.
3 Q. Yeah. So --
4 A. It wasn't long at all.
5 Q. I mean, some of the details that I just want to
6 double check on are, you know, whose phone, who called who,
7 I mean, that's --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Yeah. So, I mean, that's why I'm asking that.
10 A. I wasn't in the back seat, so I don't know whose
11 phone they were calling on. You know, I wasn't like, hey,
12 whose phone are you using? You know, I don't know. I don't
13 know whose phone they were using. It's one of the twos who
14 own a phone, which is Kyle and Jerry.
15 Q. Well, in a way you do know because you know you
16 don't have one.
17 A. That's what I'm saying. It was either one of those
18 two. 50 percent chance it was Kyle's or 50 percent chance
19 it was Tristan's.
20 Q. See.
21 A. So one of those two.
22 Q. So you cut to down to two people instead of four
23 that I had to ask, right?
24 A. Yeah, right.
25 Q. Okay. So see, you did help me.
1 A. Sure.
2 Q. That's all I'm looking at.
3 A. I'm just --
4 Q. So --
5 A. I honestly just didn't want to get involved in this
6 situation to begin with tonight. I told Kyle that.
7 Q. I can't imagine you did.
8 A. I just was, like, I just -- I need to go to work and
9 look at me. Try to work seven days a week to try and pay
10 for everything I have to pay for, try to stay on track and
11 try to not get in trouble, and then it's, like, you do a --
12 I mean, like I said, it was just two stupid decisions to go
13 down there and to have -- to go down there and have a gun,
14 and then this kid, who doesn't even care about people
15 because he just doesn't care, just trying to hurt somebody,
16 and then shit like -- you just don't ever think it's going
17 to happen is my point, you just don't.
18 Q. No.
19 A. You don't think anybody is ever going to -- it's
20 ever going to come do that, ever. I would never -- I
21 wouldn't even ever -- I'd just run the other way. I
22 wouldn't try to be tough guy and try to -- because it ain't
23 worth it.
24 Q. Is Jerry a tough guy?
25 A. No. He's a smaller kid. Not -- he just was -- he's
1 -- I don't know. He got himself into the mix of it and
2 wanted to -- I don't know. It just felt like --
3 Q. Was he trying to help?
4 A. Tristan was just, like, I don't know what to do.
5 I'm scared. I'm in my own house. And Jerry was, like,
6 well, you should call this kid and try to straighten it out
7 before he shows up at your place with a gun or shows up at
8 your place. So he was, like, you should try and figure it
9 out the night before because he had been driving by earlier,
10 you know what I mean? He didn't even want to go home. He
11 didn't even feel safe going home with a locked door because
12 the kid had already shown up the night before at his house
13 and --
14 Q. Sure.
15 A. -- tried to fight him then, then he fought Gibb,
16 then he fought -- slashed Ben's tires, then he went and
17 tried to fight Mike Gleason, then he was driving by
18 Tristan's house. It's, like, so he was -- you know, it was
19 pretty much -- he just said it. He's, like, I'm not -- I've
20 never been this uncomfortable, I never have. I mean, most
21 people in Vermont --
22 Q. So if I'm not mistaken, of the four of you driving
23 around, Tristan is the only one who knows the guy?
24 A. Yeah, Tristan's the only one who knows this guy.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. I just went -- Kyle told me to turn around and he's,
2 like, let's go pick Tristan up and get him out of the
3 situation, and I said --
4 Q. Let me ask you this. And I only ask you it because
5 obviously all these other guys are going to get talked to.
6 I mean, there's other detectives talking to these guys.
7 A. Oh, yeah.
8 Q. So, I mean, I want to make sure those guys aren't
9 saying something that doesn't mesh up with what you're
10 saying, you know what I mean? I think you're telling me the
11 truth, okay, but I don't want you to -- I don't want you to
12 cover some details that you don't think I need to know, you
13 know what I'm saying?
14 A. I'm not.
15 Q. Okay. No, I'm just -- I'm putting that on the
16 table, okay.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Did anybody say, let's load these guns just in case
19 Vinnie really goes crazy?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I mean, because they'll ask the other guys that so
22 this is what I'm saying --
23 A. Yeah, no, we weren't --
24 Q. Listen. Listen to me. Listen to me. I don't want
25 -- and I don't know what these other guys will say. They'll
1 probably say the same thing as you. But I don't want Jerry
2 to say, --
3 A. But I don't know.
4 Q. -- hey, all four of us said, frick this. We're
5 going to load the guns just in case, you know.
6 A. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. There wasn't a
7 group discussion over, okay, we're scared enough to load the
8 gun. It wasn't like that. I had no idea whether this gun
9 was loaded or not.
10 Q. That's why I'm asking.
11 A. So I have no idea whether this gun was even loaded
12 or not. So it wasn't, like, oh, yeah, let's try to find him
13 and let's go get these guns. The guns were already in the
14 truck to begin with.
15 Q. Well, listen, I know the guns were already in the
17 A. I know. But they weren't -- we didn't load 'em up
18 all as a group effort is what I'm saying. I mean, --
19 Q. That's what I'm asking.
20 A. -- I had no idea when I even grabbed that gun
21 whether it was even loaded or not.
22 Q. That's all I'm asking.
23 A. I was afraid.
24 Q. Did you guys decide beforehand to load the guns just
25 in case?
1 A. No.
2 Q. That's it. That was it.
3 A. I didn't decide to, no, definitely not.
4 Q. Okay. So Jerry ends up talking to Vinnie on the
5 phone, but sounds like he talks to Tim Arbuckle first?
6 A. I don't know. I don't know if he talked to him
7 after or before. I don't know. He talked to Kirby, talked
8 to this kid. This kid hung up on him and said he was going
9 to kill him. He was psycho, this kid said. He said, you
10 know, you're messing with a psycho and he hung up. And then
11 he called back or something. I don't know if he called -- I
12 think he called back, and I think that's when what's his
13 name called Tim. Because everybody in this truck was still
14 scared of this kid, even though there was four of us.
15 Q. Right.
16 A. And he was driving around looking for people, and
17 he's a big kid.
18 Q. Yup. Yup.
19 A. I don't know. People were -- it was just -- so
20 that's why they wanted to get Tim, just as a reinforcement
21 thing. That's why I think they decided to go down to the
22 ball field because they didn't think anything would ever
24 Q. Was Tim playing ball or was he --
25 A. Tim was. He's on the softball team.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. That was playing down there. That's why --
3 Q. So when you guys got there, did you see him? Did
4 you talk to him?
5 A. Yeah. We just got out of the truck, went and we
6 were talking in the tent with people. Then all of a sudden
7 this kid was already over there and Tim, this kid and Kyle
8 and Jerry started walking this way.
9 Q. Did, like, Tim have other guys there? I mean, do
10 you know --
11 A. Yeah, Tim said, oh, we got --
12 Q. Tim's got his boys there and said, hang out here and
13 I got my boys and is that --
14 A. Yeah, yeah.
15 Q. Am I taking that right?
16 A. Pretty much. Yeah, yes, pretty much, yes. Yeah.
18 Q. Did you see all these guys? I mean, when you got
19 there was --
20 A. It's all on his softball team.
21 Q. Okay, his softball team, got ya. All right. So, I
22 mean, was there conversation about, hey, this guy may show
23 up here or we told him to show up here or --
24 A. Yeah, Tim knew. I don't know if everybody there
25 knew, but I'm pretty sure everybody there knew. I don't
1 know. You know, I don't know what was said between Jerry
2 and Tim, that's what I want to let you know, is I don't know
3 the fine details because I wasn't on the phone. And for
4 half the conversations I wasn't even in the truck. So I
5 can't tell you exactly what he said or what was going on is
6 what I'm saying. Is they just --
7 Q. No, I'm not asking --
8 A. –- let’s go down to the ball field and we're going
9 to meet up with Tim, and I didn't know at that point in time
10 even that they were even going to meet up or we were even
11 going to meet up with this kid.
12 Q. Right. But I'm not asking about the phone
13 conversations. I'm talking about what did you hear when you
14 got to the ball field?
15 A. I got there and Jerry and Kyle started talking to
16 this kid, started talking to Tim. They were, like, oh, and
17 a couple other people that were involved. We were right
18 around everybody.
19 Q. Yup.
20 A. Like, this kid up here -- Tristan was there talking
21 with people and Gibb was there, like I said, and Gibb was
22 involved with it before. So I'm sure there was talk about
24 Q. Only seems obvious that there would have been.
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Sounds like that's --
2 A. It just like it seems like it was a whole kind of a
3 partial joke situation, you know, that until he showed up
4 there and started running at everybody with this, with
5 stuff, and then it came to the extreme situation where you
6 either get you killed or -- by a guy with a maul or -- you
7 know what I mean? So that's why it just was, like, boom,
8 like, everything was, like -- I didn't even -- I didn't even
9 think anything was going to even happen. I didn't even
10 think a fight was going to happen. And then it went from a
11 fight not even maybe happening to us being down there to
12 this kid coming -- just running full sprint just, like,
13 smash right as he closed the door, smash, smash, smash.
14 Q. So just let me go over that part quick, and then I
15 think that's it. Vinnie gets out of this gray sedan or gray
16 car. There's two girls in the front of it. He gets out.
17 You said he had a Taser?
18 A. Yeah, you could hear it. It was going "Trrk, crrk."
19 You could hear it from 200 yards away. You could hear the
20 Taser crackling, everybody could.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. You could hear it. You could see the spark of it.
23 Q. Yeah, okay. That's good.
24 A. And Jerry was, like, put the Taser down, you pussy.
25 Put the Taser down. They're, like, put the Taser down.
1 Then the kid just went, grabbed this and started running.
2 Just running.
3 Q. Did you see where the maul came from or --
4 A. Yeah, in the seat, in the back seat he had it.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I could see -- I could see enough where I could see
7 him. I'm talking I'm 250 yards away, but I could see
8 enough. Like, I'm looking, people are looking. I could see
9 him, and he was obviously behind the driver's seat, so he
10 was in the back seat, and he did something with the Taser,
11 either put it in his pocket or handed it up front, and then
12 he grabbed that and he started running back towards
14 Q. From the time you last saw the Taser, did he ever
15 take it out at any other point?
16 A. He had it at this car, then he came running with
17 the --
18 Q. Got ya.
19 A. -- with the bat. It never came up again. He was
20 just swinging that maul.
21 Q. Yeah.
22 A. Not the bat, the maul. That's what it's called.
23 Q. He didn't have anybody else with him other than
24 those two girls? He didn't have any guys with him?
25 A. Un-un. He didn't have to. He was crazy enough as
1 he is. He just was crazy.
2 Q. So he runs in the direction of you guys?
3 A. Yeah, the direction towards the truck.
4 Q. Yup.
5 A. He's at his vehicle, and he's running towards, you
6 know, running towards them. And I think Jerry went or I
7 went this way, and Jerry went this way, and Kyle was just
8 back here, like, cutting back -- retreating back towards his
9 truck, and he was kind of running this way. And that's when
10 Kyle went up to his door or whatever trying to get into his
11 truck. This kid was following him as close as he possibly
12 could, running after him. Kyle was just going to jump in
13 the truck.
14 Q. Was he walking after him or running after him?
15 A. Running.
16 Q. I'm just trying to picture it.
17 A. He's running.
18 Q. Yup.
19 A. He's running full speed.
20 Q. Yeah.
21 A. Sprinting with this. I'm telling you, as soon as
22 Kyle shut the door, the kid started hammering the side of
23 the truck as hard as he could.
24 Q. Do you think if Kyle didn't get in the truck, do you
25 think he would have hit Kyle, or do you think he was
1 going --
2 A. Oh, yeah.
3 Q. -- towards the truck?
4 A. Oh, no, no, he was going towards -- he wasn't --
5 that's what I'm saying. He wasn't going towards the
6 vehicle. He was going towards -- Kyle was over there with
7 Jerry, and they were the two instigators with this other
8 kid, Tim, or whoever the hell this kid was who's on the
9 softball team, I don't know, he was in a cut-off. I don't
10 even think it was Tim Arbuckle. I think it was this other
11 kid that was over there. And he was just running after them
12 trying to hit them with that, that was it. And then that's
13 what I'm saying, he knew that was his point in time when
14 Kyle went like this and, you know what I mean, he's trying
15 to open up the handle, and he can't open the handle, and
16 this kid's coming towards him. He knows that he ain't going
17 to be able to get in, he's going to be able to --
18 Q. Right.
19 A. So Kyle says, Unlock the truck.
20 Q. And you had the keys?
21 A. And I had the keys at that point in time.
22 Q. How did you get the keys?
23 A. Well, I -- I just got the keys. I had the keys. I
24 don't know. I had the keys.
25 Q. Okay. Do you have the keys now?
1 A. I don't have the keys now.
2 Q. Do you know where they went?
3 A. No idea.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. No idea.
6 Q. So you had 'em in your pocket?
7 A. I had them in my hand.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. When I recessed. I don't know where Tristan went.
10 Like I told you, I don't even know where he went. I don't
12 Q. So you were able to unlock the door?
13 A. I got out of the truck and I was taking with people.
14 Q. Yeah.
15 A. And then they went over there, and then they came
16 running back this way and they were, like, oh, -- Kyle's,
17 like, Unlock the door, unlock the door, because this kid was
18 coming full speed.
19 Q. So you unlocked the door with the --
20 A. With the padlock.
21 Q. -- key fob thing or whatever the hell they call
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Kyle gets in, Vinnie swings –-
25 A. A half step behind him.
1 Q. Yup. Vinnie swings the axe --
2 A. Smash, right through the windshield.
3 Q. -- and hits --
4 A. Smashes out the windshield, the driver's side
6 Q. The driver's --
7 A. Window.
8 Q. Window?
9 A. Window. Smashed right out. And I think he -- then
10 he hits twice into the door, like, trying to hit, like, in,
11 you know, in through the window, and he hit twice right,
12 like, three -- two or three times right into the -- where
13 the handle is, smashed that in. Then I think he hit the --
14 Q. Where are you when you're watching this?
15 A. I'm back out of the situation, you know, I'm back
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. That's where I was at the beginning. I was running
19 away. I was scared. Ran away. I ran away. I kind of went
20 up here to -- like I kind of recall kind of creep forward to
21 see this kid way over here, then as soon as he started
22 running this way, I started just running back.
23 Q. Uh-huh. So when you say you retreat back, are you
24 near the green truck that you end up near later, or are you
25 further back than that? Or do you even know?
1 A. I really don't, no.
2 Q. I mean, I'm not holding you to --
3 A. I really don't. I really don't. Just the whole
4 situation was -- went by fast.
5 Q. Yeah, I know it did.
6 A. I don't really know what else I can say to tell you.
7 I'm not -- I'm not missing any details.
8 Q. Well, no, you've added good details. That's the
9 kind of stuff I'm looking for. Like, you remember the
10 Taser, "kkkt," you make the noise and say you could see it?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Those are the details I'm looking for. Those are
13 good. Those are good for you to remember stuff like that,
14 okay. That's important. If you can remember details like
15 that, that's -- that's what we're looking for. Like the key
16 fob, you opened the -- you unlocked the doors?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. I'm trying to know where were you? How far from the
19 truck were you when you did it? Did you throw the keys
20 after you unlocked it and ran? Did you --
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. You know what I'm saying?
23 A. I don’t know. In a situation like that though you
24 don't --
25 Q. No, I know.
1 A. -- it's not like -- you don't know everything.
2 Q. I'm just trying to --
3 A. I can't tell you where --
4 Q. Yeah, but listen, listen, --
5 A. I was pretty close --
6 Q. Listen, listen. If I don't ask it, maybe you won't
7 think to tell me. But if I ask it, like I asked you several
8 times about the Taser, and I think I asked you enough times
9 that you finally said, no, you could hear it, you know.
10 A. Everybody there could see it and hear it.
11 Q. Yeah. Well, you didn't tell me that.
12 A. He pulled it out and it was going "kkkt," and he had
13 it the night before it and the knife.
14 Q. That's why it's important. That if I don't ask you
15 about the keys, maybe you dropped them right near the truck.
16 Maybe you say you unlock it and you throw 'em and you run
17 the hell. I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Maybe you put ‘em in your pocket. I don't know.
20 That's why I'm asking. If I don't ask it, I won't get an
21 answer to it.
22 A. See, I don't know if those guys knew about the whole
23 situation before I even met up with them or what. I don't
25 Q. Who's "those guys"?
1 A. Jerry and Kyle and them. I don't know whether they
2 had word of this since night before, whether -- because I'm
3 pretty sure that they -- last night Tristan had called Kyle
4 and stuff and let him wind of know what was going on, when
5 everything went down, as I know there was other people that
6 were involved in this, and he had pulled a knife out on them
7 and he was, like, --
8 Q. Did you guys ever talk about it while you were
9 scouting, walking around or --
10 A. They didn't say anything about it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Most of our stuff was done from the truck. We just
13 took, like, a back road, meandered through up by Popple
14 Dungeon Road and it came out up above the armory in Chester
15 on the Sweet Road or something it came out on. And then by
16 the time we were done with that, it was, like, couple hours
17 later. No talk had been done of that. And like I told you,
18 we went back to the apartment. I talked to Jess, I talked
19 to my old man, talked to my mom, got the dog, because it was
20 my brother's dog, they had had a dog, and then we left back
21 out and that's when Tristan called immediately --
22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 A. -- all bawling so --
24 Q. So Kyle gets into the driver's seat. Vinnie is
25 hitting that door?
1 A. Yup.
2 Q. And I think you said, like, five or six times --
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. -- you guess he hit the truck --
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. -- anyway?
7 A. Yeah. At least. And he's trying to --
8 Q. Did anybody saying anything about the gun? Was
9 that, like, Tristan or Jerry, did somebody yell?
10 A. Nobody said anything.
11 Q. Nothing that you --
12 A. No. I don't remember anything.
13 Q. That's another one of those questions that I ask --
14 A. Don't remember anything about that. I don't think
15 anybody said anything about anything. I think it was just
16 kind of, like, --
17 Q. Were they in cases or -- you know what I mean? Do
18 you have soft cases or a gun rack or anything in the truck?
19 A. Um, I think he had a hard rack that goes in the back
20 windshield. I don't know if that was on there or not. But
21 at this point in time I think both of them were in the front
22 by the time we pulled up there. Like just, you know,
23 sitting down by the arm, you know.
24 Q. Did you guys take 'em -- you said you did a lot of
25 scouting by driving?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Did you do any in the woods?
3 A. Yeah, we were in the woods and on a class four road.
4 Q. No, I mean, like, in the woods walking.
5 A. Yeah, no, we were just on --
6 Q. Because I know you said you were going to set trail
7 cameras and stuff.
8 A. We were on a logging road, and you'd be surprised
9 how many deer runs you can see going down through.
10 Q. Yeah. No, I know.
11 A. So we were just -- we were -- we meandered our way
12 back through.
13 Q. Well, what I'm getting to is were you guys carrying
14 the guns while you were scouting, or were you just scouting
15 while driving and looking?
16 A. Well, that's the thing. We didn't ever actually get
17 out. We were planning on going back another day in which,
18 yes, we would have carried our guns with us out in the woods
19 just in case but --
20 Q. So you guys never --
21 A. We're hunters. He always has a gun on -- Kyle
22 carries a gun with him all the time just in case. Not to
23 shoot something, just saying just in case, you never know.
24 Q. No, I --
25 A. He scouts all the time. He's a big hunter. So he
1 carries a gun with him.
2 Q. That's fine. I understand that, okay. I understand
3 that. I hunt too. I always have guns, okay. But what I
4 was asking was did you guys get out of the truck and scout
5 on foot with the gun?
6 A. No, we never got out.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. No, I think Kyle got out -- I think Kyle shot some
9 shots with that .22.
10 Q. Whereabouts? I mean, at what? Did he shoot a
11 couple red squirrels or something?
12 A. At trees. No, just at a tree. He got out and shot
13 a couple shots at the tree or something. Just shooting,
14 just, like, he shot a couple shots at a tree just for target
15 practice or something.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. That was it. I mean the other gun wasn't shot at
19 Q. So back to Kyle in the front seat of the truck. You
20 said he pops out of the passenger side?
21 A. When?
22 Q. Huh?
23 A. When?
24 Q. This is at the ball field.
25 A. Yeah, yeah.
1 Q. While Vinnie's hitting the door, he comes out the
2 front driver's -- or the front passenger or rear passenger?
3 A. The passenger side, yeah, front passenger side is
4 the only door you can get out --
5 Q. Right.
6 A. -- of the truck.
7 Q. Does he get out and he has the gun or not have the
9 A. Yeah, he does have the gun, I think. I think. I
10 don't know. I can't -- I can't -- I can't remember. I
11 wasn't sitting there just staring at the situation. I'm
12 pretty -- yeah, obviously he jumped out. He had the gun.
13 He was scared. Obviously he did, what I'm saying, it was
14 obvious. That's definitely obvious that he definitely had
15 the gun. He jumped in the truck. I'm sure he was scared,
16 and he got out with the gun. So I would say definitely he
17 got out with the gun.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I didn't see.
20 Q. Well, listen, --
21 A. I didn't see. I heard the shot. I just was --
22 Q. That's fine. I don't want you to answer -- if you
23 don't know, just say I don't know. I couldn't see from
24 where I was.
25 A. Uh-huh.
1 Q. You know. If I -- that's why I was asking it. If
2 you saw it happen --
3 A. It was more scared than trying to be in the
4 situation is what I'm trying to say. I was more in the
5 background state than --
6 Q. I believe it.
7 A. -- in a, hey, let's fight. That wasn't me. I was
8 just trying to get through the night and go home. Didn't
9 want to even be there. Like I said, that's not like my type
10 of personality to try and get myself into those situations
11 at all.
12 Q. Well, I think there's a pretty small percentage of
13 the general population who do, and -- and probably most of
14 us don't hang out with those people.
15 Kyle gets out, he's got the rifle. Does he go to
16 Vinnie's side or does Vinnie come to his side? What
18 A. Vinnie's running around the truck after him.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And he circles -- he probably went around maybe one
21 or two times or whatever, around the vehicle, you know,
22 because he's -- this Vinnie's still pursuing him with the
24 Q. Right.
25 A. Whatever it is. And I'm sure if he had gotten close
1 enough, he would have swung again and tried, you know,
2 because he just kept going around and around.
3 Q. Do you see --
4 A. Kyle says, Get back. That's all I remember is he
5 says, Get back, and he shot a shot into the ground. And he
6 kept coming.
7 Q. Did you see him shoot into the ground? Do you
8 remember what side of the truck he was when the gun went off
9 or --
10 A. Don't exactly remember. They were right around that
11 truck. They were doing circles around that truck.
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. And whether they were one side or the other, I don't
14 know. All’s I know is he shot one shot and the other kid
15 just kept coming and coming and coming. He told him to get
16 back and the kid just kept coming.
17 Q. So he initially only shot --
18 A. Once.
19 Q. -- one time?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And then you --
22 A. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure, yes. I don't
23 think he shot twice.
24 Q. Okay. So then the doors of the truck are still
25 open, both doors or?
1 A. Yeah, both doors.
2 Q. How does the other door get -- how does the driver
3 door --
4 A. I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to --
5 Q. I know.
6 A. I'm not very good at this. I can't tell you. One
7 door was -- definitely this door was open, the one that Kyle
8 got out, is all I'm saying, and he was on that side. So I
9 don't know if I opened that door or it was already open, but
10 I knew the gun was in the middle, and I knew that this door
11 was open.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And I knew that he was on this side. So I can't
14 remember whether this door was open or it wasn't. I knew
15 that he was on this side of it with this door open, the gun
16 was sitting right there, and he could have reached in and
17 grabbed it. That's all I knew. That's why I made a
18 decision at that point in time that -- while -- before he
19 grabbed it, I would grab it.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. You know, that's the only reason why I grabbed that
22 .22, just to get it out of -- if it wasn't there, then I
23 would have never even -- I would have just stayed back
25 Q. So you said you grabbed it through the --
1 A. The driver's side.
2 Q. -- the driver's side?
3 A. I don't know if I opened up the door or it was
4 already open. I'm trying to remember that right now. I
5 can't exactly remember. I think it was open. I don't know.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. At that point in time I wasn't paying attention to
8 whether the door was open or not. I just remember thinking
9 to myself, you need to get that gun.
10 Q. So you get your hands on the gun. Tell me what --
11 in detail tell me again.
12 A. I just grabbed it, and the gun muzzle was towards
13 the ground. I grabbed it, pulled back, realized it was
14 loaded. I ran back from that side of the truck and he came
15 around this way, and I shot once into the ground, I'm pretty
16 sure, and ran back to the truck. I was within -- you know,
17 I was within this distance. I was here and I ran up,
18 grabbed it, recessed back, and he came around the front of
19 that truck. He was right at the nose of this truck, and it
20 was pretty ballsy for me to even run in there. I thought he
21 was going to run right out there at that point in time. But
22 it seemed worth it at the time, like I said, just so he
23 didn't get that gun. Because if he did get that gun, only
24 God knows what would have happened with somebody like that.
25 Q. How close were you to the -- you said you were near
1 the bed of the green truck --
2 A. Yeah, I was probably --
3 Q. -- when you tired fired into the ground?
4 A. I ran to the truck.
5 Q. Were you near the truck -- I mean, were you next to
6 the truck when you fired the warning shot?
7 A. Next to the green truck. I was recessing back this
8 way, and I was -- like I said, I had gotten up and I was
9 probably 20, 30 yards from Kyle's truck at that point in
10 time when I fired my first shot, you know what I mean? He
11 came out when I was, like, over here, and I just kept going
12 back. I mean, he could have probably killed me. If he saw
13 me when I was going in to grab that, he came running right
14 around that, he probably would have laced me right in the
15 head with that thing, but he didn't.
16 And then he started coming around, and that's when I
17 shot -- fired a shot, and that's when Kyle sweeped around
18 this way, and that's when I think he came and wrapped around
19 this way. And I ran back. And Kyle came around this way,
20 and I think that's when this kid came -- you know what I
21 mean, he started around this way, and Kyle came this way,
22 and that's when I think he finally went back, then I think
23 he started coming at him again. I don't know. From that
24 point in time I was just running back, and I had my back
25 towards the situation at that point in time, then I heard
1 another shot. That's why I can't tell you where he was or
2 where -- I was just running back this way. I'd dropped the
3 gun. And he wasn't at this point in time anywhere coming
4 near that, otherwise I wouldn't have probably -- I wouldn't
5 have dropped that gun right in that truck, you know what I
6 mean? He was at the other side and then I heard "boom."
7 Q. I don't know if he answered the question I had or
8 not. Were you in between trucks when you fired your shot,
9 or were you near the green truck where you left the gun?
10 A. I told you I was near the green truck.
11 Q. Okay. That's what I'm just verifying. I know you
12 were backpedaling. You said you were backpedaling from
13 Kyle's truck --
14 A. I wasn't probably right at it. I was --
15 Q. -- towards the green truck?
16 A. I was, yeah, I was close to that. I was a ways away
17 from Kyle's. I told you there was probably 30, 40 yards
18 maybe in between Kyle's truck and the green truck. I was
19 probably 30 yards, 25 yards after I had left the gun, and I
20 was backpedaling. I was probably 25 yards away from this
21 door. So if he's over here, you got to figure I'm at least
22 35 yards from him at that point in time, but he was around
23 this way, running this way, like, at me. And he'd already
24 ran this way about ten seconds later, I think.
25 Q. Do you think he saw you?
1 A. Oh, he knew what was going on.
2 Q. He saw you though?
3 A. I don't know. Obviously he saw what was going on.
4 He was around one side of the vehicle, and saw me come in
5 and grab the other gun, and then he was still not scared. I
6 just backpedaled.
7 Q. Well, that's why I --
8 A. He saw me grab the gun. I don't think he was even
9 worried about it. I don't think he thought anybody was
10 going to shoot. I mean, other than that initial shot, I
11 don't think he even thought anything -- like I said, I don't
12 think he thought anybody would ever pull the trigger on him,
13 which I wouldn't, you know. I don't think he thought that.
14 That's why -- that's why he kept going after. I mean, like
15 I said, most people if you think you're going to get shot
16 at, you just stop and you wouldn't keep going being a psycho
17 and trying to hit somebody or something, but he just kept
18 on, not thinking anything would happen.
19 Q. Well, let me ask you this again. Did he see you
20 with a gun?
21 A. I don't know. Yeah, I think so. Maybe. Yes. I
22 don't know. I have no idea.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I don't know what he saw. How would I tell you what
25 he saw? This is really hard for me to tell you. I mean,
1 I'm trying to help you --
2 Q. Well, listen, because when you explain how he comes
3 around the front of the truck, --
4 A. He was on this side right across from me when I
5 grabbed the gun.
6 Q. No, I know that.
7 A. I mean, he could have grabbed it.
8 Q. Listen, I know he was on the other side of the truck
9 when you grabbed the gun. I understand that. You backpedal
10 towards the green truck. What I'm asking is when he comes
11 around the front, so he's in the front of the truck now,
12 does he see you and is he coming at you?
13 A. Yeah, he was --
14 Q. Or is he still going around the truck --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- towards where Kyle was?
17 A. He definitely -- he definitely saw me and he was
18 coming around the front of the truck. So I would obviously
19 assume he was coming after me. That's why I assumed he was
20 coming after me. That's why I ran away. I wasn't going to
21 stand my ground and be, like, you know -- at the point in
22 time where I was at this point in time and I saw him coming
23 around, I just started running backwards because I wasn't
24 going to stand there and be, like, (inaudible), you know. I
25 wasn't -- I'm not --
1 Q. No, I know.
2 A. So that's why -- and then I just ran as fast as I
3 could, back as fast as I could, turned around and shot into
4 the ground and then left, and then I was right back here,
5 and then I was right there at that truck by the time I had
6 shot. So then I was right there. And then my brother came
7 around. And then I put the gun down --
8 Q. That's all right.
9 A. –- and recessed back --
10 Q. You --
11 A. -- from that point in time. I can't tell you what
12 happened from that point in time. I just did what I thought
13 was best in that situation I was put in. Not saying it was
14 -- I don't know. I just did what I thought was right.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. And I tried to do the best thing I could. I tried
17 not --
18 Q. That's fine.
19 A. That's all I can say.
20 Q. I'm asking you just to do the best you can to
21 remember. That's all I'm trying to do. You answered my
22 question there that time.
23 A. I just -- I mean --
24 Q. You're doing good. You're doing good, okay.
25 A. This is pretty --
1 Q. I know it's hard to remember all this.
2 A. It’s, like, twelve -- what time is it, like, 1:00 at
4 Q. It's only 12:30. We're getting out of here shortly
5 and we're just about done.
6 So you fired a shot into the ground. Earlier you
7 said, five, six feet in front of you, one shot?
8 A. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm pretty sure it
9 was one shot. It could have been two shots.
10 Q. Could it have been two shots?
11 A. Could have. Semiautomatics you roll the trigger,
12 it'll squeeze twice, you know. Could have been two shots.
13 Q. Let me ask you -- I'll ask it to you this way. If
14 the gun went off twice, was it while you were pointing it at
15 the ground, or did you shoot one round into the ground and
16 then could it have gone off when you were pointing the gun
17 elsewhere afterwards?
18 A. No. See, this is why I'm asking you this. Is you
19 must have think that I dropped the kid or something like
21 Q. I don't know if you did. I don't know who shot him.
22 I don't know anything about what gun shot this kid, no idea.
23 A. I know. It's pretty simple though that he has a
24 hole in his leg this big. .22 don't have --
25 Q. I don't know if he's got any other bullets in him.
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. That's why I'm asking.
3 A. I know. I'm just letting you know, I shot into the
4 ground and that was it. I didn't point the gun at him.
5 Pointed the gun at the ground and recessed.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I never pointed -- I never physically pointed the
8 weapon at this kid at any point in time. Never pointed the
9 gun at him, ever.
10 Q. That's what I was asking.
11 A. Never.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I never did.
14 Q. So if your gun went off --
15 A. So when I'm positive, then I never shot -- I never
16 shot him because I didn't shoot at him. I shot at the
17 ground trying to scare him. I never pointed the gun at him.
18 I told you, he was far enough where I'm talking 20, 30 yards
19 where I felt comfortable enough to shoot. And that's why --
20 I mean, he was coming at me, but I didn't know whether --
21 you know, I just shot in the ground, and at that point in
22 time I was just, like, I'll get out of the situation and
23 nothing will happen, you know. I'll run behind the car or
24 something and I'll keep running around the car, whatever.
25 I'm just not going to -- as long as he don't have that gun,
1 he's not shooting at me, I don't care, but I'm not getting
3 Q. All right. Let me ask this once more then. Just
4 let me ask this. You've answered this. I just want to make
5 sure I'm clear on your answer. You shot once, maybe
6 twice --
7 A. In the ground. It could have been --
8 Q. I'm not done with the question though. I'm not done
9 with the question. Chill. Let me just ask the question.
10 And I -- you know what the question's going to be. Just let
11 me get it out of my mouth. If the gun went off twice, was
12 it on the ground in front of you?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. That's it. That's all I was trying to get out. You
15 kept cutting me off for the last three minutes. Okay. And
16 then you put the gun down on the truck and you take off?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I know for a fact I didn't point that gun at that
20 kid though because I wouldn't do that.
21 Q. That's going to be my next question to confirm. So
22 are you 100 percent positive you didn't shoot this guy?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. That's it.
25 A. 100 percent.
1 Q. That's where I'm going with this, okay?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Is there any way that we'll find a .22 bullet in
4 this guy?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. That's it. I wasn't holding the .22, you
7 were, so that's why I'm asking you these questions.
8 A. Yeah, I know.
9 Q. If I knew what was going on inside your head and
10 what you remember, I wouldn't have to ask you the questions,
12 A. Exactly.
13 Q. Okay. That's why we do it. You retreat back
14 towards the tent. You hear another shot; is that correct?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Just one more?
17 A. Uh-huh. I think. Yes.
18 Q. Well, it's a --
19 A. One.
20 Q. -- aught six.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. So you'd probably hear it pretty clear.
23 A. So one -- yes, one more, yes. One more.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I'm not counting shots at this point in time.
1 That's what I’m trying to say to you. I think I hear, yes,
2 one more shot.
3 Q. Okay. So in total you think Kyle shot twice, total?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. And you once but maybe -- maybe a double tap into
6 the ground, is that --
7 A. Yeah, yup. It very well could have been a double,
8 but it was into the ground.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. All’s I know is that my hand was on that trigger and
11 it went being "ba-boom" or "boom" and I ran back.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I mean, I'm trying to remember right now --
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. -- whether -- what happened and whether -- I think
16 there was four shots, I think. Maybe there was three. It
17 was three or four.
18 Q. You mean total shots?
19 A. Total.
20 Q. Yeah, okay. That's -- that's what I'm trying to
21 get, okay.
22 A. Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to remember.
23 Q. I mean, obviously there's a couple main questions
24 that I'm trying to ask you here, you know. Did you shoot
25 Vinnie intentionally?
1 A. Did I?
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. I didn't shoot Vinnie.
4 Q. No, I know. I'm saying did you -- you said there
5 was no way a bullet would have hit him.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. I'm just reasking that question in a different
8 manner. Did you shoot Vinnie?
9 A. No.
10 Q. That's what I'm asking you.
11 A. Oh, my God.
12 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure. And let me ask you
13 this question. Prior to getting to the ball field or at the
14 ball field before Vinnie arrived, was there any talk between
15 any of you guys about shooting it?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. None of us obviously wanted to shoot Vinnie. Nobody
19 ever wanted to shoot anybody.
20 Q. Well, I don't know that unless I ask you.
21 A. It wasn't -- I mean, --
22 Q. I mean, I don't want to --
23 A. -- we're not that type of kids there. We're not
24 that type of kids where we would ever shoot somebody.
25 Q. Yeah, but I don't know -- I don't know ya. So I
1 don't --
2 A. I know you don't. But I'm saying I'm not that type
3 of person and I'm telling you right now I can't really --
4 Q. But listen, --
5 A. I mean, --
6 Q. This is what I'm trying to get this info from you
7 because obviously I'm going to meet with the other
8 detectives who are talking to Jerry, who are talking to
9 Kyle, who are talking to Tristan or Tim or whoever the hell
10 else was there. I don't want to meet with five detectives
11 after this and four of 'em say, bullshit, Corey's wrong.
12 Corey lied to you because Jerry, Tristan, Kyle, Tim said
13 they all had a conversation about let's load the guns up
14 just in case, you know, stuff like that. Everything you've
15 told me is the truth?
16 A. Yeah, we didn't try to load any guns up and try
17 and --
18 Q. That's what I'm asking. Was there any conversation
19 about having guns loaded prior to Vinnie showing up in case
20 something went wrong?
21 A. Not to my acknowledgment is all I'm saying. I was
22 in and out of the truck though a couple times but --
23 Q. I'm saying at the ball field.
24 A. No, none of us -- I mean, none of us had any
25 intentions -- at least I didn't have any intentions. I
1 didn't know whether the gun was loaded is what I'm saying at
2 this point in time or not, so how would I know whether I'm
3 going to shoot somebody. I don't even think the gun's
4 loaded. I don't even there was a -- I don’t even think it's
5 for show. I don't think it's for action, like I said, so I
6 don't think they're going to shoot anybody.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. I don't think they're going to load any guns. I
9 don't think this. I don't know. I don't know.
10 Q. But you weren't aware of any of those conversations
11 taking place, you weren't present for --
12 A. I wasn't aware of anybody saying -- no, I wasn't
13 aware of anything like, oh, we're going to load these guns
14 and shoot Vinnie or we're going to -- we're better to have
15 guns because Vinnie's going to kill us or just --
16 Q. Did you guys -- I know you said you heard all this
17 about the day before thing, you heard it all from Tristan.
18 Did --
19 A. Yeah, well, from Gibb and Tristan.
20 Q. Did you guys have any info, did you know if this guy
21 carried a gun at all?
22 A. All they said is --
23 Q. You said it was a knife --
24 A. All they said is he came in here the night before
25 with a knife and Taser.
1 Q. Uh-huh. Nobody knew -- how long has he lived in the
2 area? I know you said he's from the Boston area but --
3 A. I don't even know him.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. At all. I don't know where he lives. I don't know.
6 I don't know.
7 Q. I know. You said that. But I'm just saying do you
8 know from Tristan? Have you heard? Do you have any idea?
9 A. No idea.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Heard he's been staying with Julie.
12 Q. Uh-huh
13 A. That's it. I don't know. Like I said, before
14 tonight -- today I couldn't -- I don't even know who this
15 kid is. I didn't even know he was in Springfield. He's
16 from Boston. I don't even know. I don't know him.
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 A. I just went down – all’s I'm saying is by the time I
19 got out of the store, I just went in there because I thought
20 we were meeting Tim, and I didn't think even this kid was
21 even going to show up, and then --
22 Q. And then he did.
23 A. It went to hell after that.
24 Q. Okay. Anything else you need to tell me though?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you swear that everything you've told me is the
3 A. Yeah, I told you the truth.
4 Q. Everything?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Did you leave anything out purposely?
7 A. No, I -- no, I honestly did not.
8 Q. I want to say I asked you, all right.
9 A. I've been giving you the truth. This is the same
10 story I told every officer -- it's not the same. I'm just
11 saying it's the same -- this is the best of my
12 acknowledgment of what happened.
13 Q. That's all I'm asking, brother, that's all I'm
14 asking, okay.
15 A. This is the best that I can give ya. I can't tell
16 you -- I mean, --
17 Q. All I'm asking is are you lying to me?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. That's it. That's it. I just want to make
20 sure you're telling me the truth, okay. I told you that --
21 I told you that from the get go. That's all we're looking
22 for is the truth the best you can remember, okay.
23 A. Yeah. I understand.
24 Q. Corey, this is just a sworn statement, because I
25 didn't have you write out a statement, we just recorded.
1 I'm just going to have you sign this, and I'm going to have
2 you read it all. This just says that you were -- you did
3 not lie to me, and look, I'll show you right here, you can
4 read it, on, and we'll fill in the date and time, we'll fill
5 in your name, I provided verbal audio recorded statement to
6 Detective Trooper Daniel Trudeau of the Vermont State Police
7 of my own free will without any threats or promises made to
8 me. I'm also aware that it is a crime, a violation of Title
9 13, Section 1754 to give false information to a police
10 officer implicating another person or to deflect an
11 investigation from the person or another person.
12 The taped recorded statement is true and accurate to
13 the best of my knowledge, belief, ability, and is attached
14 and incorporated into this sworn statement. Okay?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. If I can just have you write your date of birth,
17 your age, print your address.
18 A. 17?
19 Q. It's 18 right now. And that's 12:42 p.m. or a.m.,
20 sorry. That's your name. Right here I need you to sign and
21 date this. We're going to get out of here in two seconds,
22 okay. I'll fill in the case number later.
23 Do you -- do you have phone numbers of any of these
24 people, some of the names you gave me? Like, do you know
25 Tristan's phone number?
1 A. Not off the top of my head, no. I don't have a cell
2 phone so it's --
3 Q. What about Kyle?
4 A. My brother?
5 Q. Yup.
6 A. His cell phone? 376-3766.
7 Q. Does he have a home phone?
8 A. That's -- no.
9 Q. He just uses his cell?
10 A. He lives at the apartment where I live. So he lives
11 upstairs. He just uses that. I have a home phone because I
12 can't afford a cell phone.
13 Q. What about Jerry, do you know --
14 A. I don't think he has a cell phone and I'm not -- I
15 don't know. He's just with Kyle all the time. This is the
16 first time I've hung out with these guys in forever, to tell
17 you truth, and --
18 Q. And they live right there or does Jer- --
19 A. Kyle does. Jerry lives somewhere with his mom in
20 Chester or Londonderry or --
21 Q. So you don't know?
22 A. I don't know. Can't tell you.
23 Q. Tristan, you don't know. What about Gibb?
24 A. Gibb, I'm not sure either one of those cell phones
25 off the top of my head.
1 Q. Okay. I'm -- when I say phone, I mean cell or house
2 or anything like that.
3 A. No, I know --
4 Q. If I had to to call 'em.
5 A. -- I know that Gibb and -- or Tristan has just a
6 cell phone and I'm not sure what the number is.
7 Q. Okay. How about Ben?
8 A. Ben, not sure.
9 Q. Julie?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Mike?
12 A. Nope. You can get ahold of my brother. My brother
13 knows Mike's number.
14 Q. I know. You don't have to say --
15 A. Mike can probably get it for you, but I don't --
16 Q. We probably got it, you know, but if for some reason
17 somebody forgot to get it or forgot to ask him, I can
18 say, --
19 A. I just can’t remember.
20 Q. -- you know what, Corey remembered it. I got it
21 written right here. That's why I'm asking.
22 Ready to get out of here? Quarter of at 0044.
23 (Thereupon, the proceedings were concluded)
Corey Bolaski-GRAND JURY TESTIMONY
21 BY MR. CAHILL:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bolaski. Please state your
23 full name and spell your last name for the court
25 A. Okay, my name is Corey Bolaski, C-O-R-E-Y,
02 Q. Now, before we proceed any further, I have to let
03 you know that you do not have to about here and that
04 you're remaining here is voluntary?
05 A. Um-hum.
06 Q. That you do not have to answer any questions, and
07 that if at a certain point you become uncomfortable with
08 any answer that you're asked or someone else is asking,
09 you cannot answer, and you can terminate the question.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Also, if you need to take a break at any time to
12 consult with your attorney, we can give you as much time
13 as you need to do that.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. You also have to understand that anything you say
16 during this proceeding could be used against you in
17 criminal court or against another person in criminal
18 court if that becomes necessary.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Understood?
21 A. Um-hum.
22 Q. Just have to bear with me. I've been so sick
23 lately, need throat lozenge. And I just want to make
24 clear that even though perhaps the main focus of the
25 grand jury is incident involving your brother Kyle, that
01 one, to make sure you also know that the grand jury is
02 considering potential charges against you, as well; you
03 understand that?
04 A. Yep.
05 Q. Okay. So let's talk about August 17, that's
06 Sunday, the day of this softball tournament?
07 A. Yep.
08 Q. Where do you wake up that morning?
09 A. My apartment in Chester, Vermont. My mom has a
10 store there, me and Kyle both have apartments, had
11 apartments there. I live downstairs. I woke up like
12 seven-thirty that morning, my dad had came, picked me up,
13 I was going to work with him that day doing some
14 staining. So he got me, and we proceeded to Springfield
15 up by the high school, and I worked with him all that day
16 until about two-thirty. Then at two-thirty, we got done
17 with what we were doing, so we came back to his house,
18 where Kyle had been working, done some landscaping with
19 Jerry Ucci. I got back there, and I talked with those
20 guys for a little bit, asked them what they were doing,
21 if they were done working. They said, yeah, we were done
22 working, we were thinking about maybe doing some scouting
23 in Chester, that area. So I didn't really have much to
24 do, I wanted to hang out with those guys, so I opted to
25 go with them. My dad said you want to go with me, or you
01 know, hang out with them? I said I would hang out with
02 them. So I got in with them. It was probably around
03 three o'clock. And we proceeded to make our way towards
04 Chester. We got into Chester, not sure exactly what time
05 it was when we got into Chester. But --
06 Q. Let me step you for a quick second. Whose vehicle
07 are you in at that point?
08 A. We are in my brother's Ford F350.
09 Q. Who's driving that vehicle?
10 A. My brother.
11 Q. And front passenger seat, who's there?
12 A. Jerry.
13 Q. And where you sit?
14 A. I'm in the back. Passenger seat.
15 Q. Any alcohol on board?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No beers?
18 A. Not that I had -- seen -- there didn't appear to
19 be any at this point in time.
20 Q. If people were drinking beer, actually drinking
21 beers in the vehicle, that's something you would have
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Any other alcoholic beverages other than beer
25 potentially in the truck in the back seat?
01 A. Not at that point in time, no.
02 Q. So I interrupted. You're in Kyle's vehicle.
03 You're in Chester. What are you doing?
04 A. We went to Gould's Market, stopped there, I ran
05 in, grabbed a Pepsi, came back out, and Kyle was talking
06 to his friend, Ian, also works at Homestead Landscaping,
07 and he then was talking with him about his, because Ian
08 lives out on Popple Dungeon Road, his parents own some
09 land out there, so he started telling us about how it was
10 a good spot, he'd been seeing some deer out there. We
11 never really been out there, so they were talking about,
12 you know, just Kyle had said he wanted to go out there
13 and take a look and scout, so then we, Ian said, told us
14 where he had lived, gave us permission, you know, where
15 to go in, so everything was all right with that. And so
16 we proceeded out that way, that's the thing, I'm not real
17 exactly sure, at that point in time we were out there,
18 there was some beer in the truck, so nobody had been
19 drinking yet, but the, maybe it was like, I think it was
20 like a twelve-pack or so, it was like half full, but
21 nobody was drinking at that point in time. So there must
22 have, I didn't see any, but later on I had one beer. We
23 were out on Popple Dungeon Road in the back seat, I did,
24 so --
25 Q. Okay.
01 A. -- I didn't know where it came from. But it was
02 in there.
03 Q. Was it just you that had a beer?
04 A. Just me, just me, I think, and Jerry might have
05 had a beer, too, as well. I didn't see Kyle having
06 anything. At all.
07 Q. So you're driving Popple Dungeon Road. Do you get
08 to that piece of land that you've been talking about
10 A. Yeah, we just -- can you rephrase?
11 Q. Okay. So you're, you're driving out this road
12 toward that piece of land that you had heard was good for
13 spotting deer, all that sort of stuff?
14 A. Right. We headed out that way, and he told us
15 where to enter, and it was like a class-four road, I
16 believe, so we went up and proceeded out that way on a
17 class-four road like a logging trail, we just meandering
18 through the woods just headed out looking for deer, you
19 know. Looking for deer runs, and that was just about it.
20 Q. So are you doing that all from within the vehicle,
21 are you getting out and --
22 A. No, we were doing that all mostly from the
23 vehicle. The only time we got out was I got out one time
24 to take a leak, excuse me, and Kyle had gotten out once
25 or twice, and that was when he had .22 that he normally
01 carried with him, and he had gotten out, and he had fired
02 a couple shots into a knot of a tree, just, checking for
03 accuracy. I do remember that. Other than that, none of
04 us really got out of truck at all. It was just like an
05 hour or so ride slowly through the woods.
06 Q. Now, when Kyle goes out, he checks.22 for
07 accuracy, then when he's done, he puts the .22 back in
08 the truck?
09 A. Yep.
10 Q. And where in the truck does the .22 go?
11 A. It was in the back seat. I was in the back seat,
12 and it was in the back seat. I can't remember if it was
13 under the seat, or if it was in a gun rack that was
14 behind my head. I can't remember exactly where it was.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. But I think it might have been under the seat.
17 Not positive so --
18 Q. Now, what kind of .22 rifle?
19 A. It's a Marlin .22. It's a, one of ones that you
20 have like a rod that you take out, and you load in the
21 shells near the barrel. They will go, they go down, you
22 put the road back down, and close it and --
23 Q. So let's say you got an unloaded one of these
24 Marlins, and you want to load it up?
25 A. Uh-huh.
01 Q. So you have to unscrew the end of the rod?
02 A. Yep, you just, you just turn it, it's like a
03 little lock, it goes down, and it locks, you can lock it,
04 pull it up, and then it's got kind of like a muzzle;
05 loader, it's got a main barrel and secondary barrel, all
06 the other bullets going into the secondary barrel, and
07 they just go down, and you pull the rod back down and
08 lock it.
09 Q. Okay. So just to walk me through it, so you twist
10 the cap of the rod about half a turn, quarter turn ?
11 A. Just like a quarter turn because a little notch in
12 the --
13 Q. Then you pull the whole rod out?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then the bullets go in where the rod was?
16 A. Yes, there's a little section like the end of the
17 rod is little section just big enough for .22 shell, you
18 put the .22 shell, this drops down, drops down. I
19 believe it holds fourteen shells.
20 Q. And when you're done, you put the rod back in and
21 tighten it?
22 A. This keeps all the .22 shells from falling out,
24 Q. What do you have to do to actually chamber the
25 first round?
01 A. There's a little pin up by the trigger, pull the
02 pin back, that puts a cartridge into the, whatever you
03 call it, it's, you're ready once you pull that back, then
04 the cartridge goes in, it's ready to be fired.
05 Q. Into the chamber?
06 A. Yeah.
07 Q. After that time, is semi automatic gun?
08 A. Yep.
09 Q. So after that first round is chambered, then each
10 time you pull the trigger, you could fire another round?
11 A. Correct. Correct.
12 Q. So anyway, that's the gun that Kyle checks out on
13 the knot in the tree?
14 A. Yep.
15 Q. And then puts back in the back seat?
16 A. Right, yep, it was accurate, it was completely a
17 hundred percent accurate, that's all he was checking to
18 see if it had been knocked off. Sometimes travel the
19 sites get knocked.
20 Q. There's scope on it; right?
21 A. Scope, yep.
22 Q. Now, do you know -- you said Kyle fired how many
23 shots in the tree?
24 A. I'd say two.
25 Q. And the capacity of gun you said believe fourteen
02 A. I think fourteen and one in the chamber, if, so
03 fifteen total.
04 Q. Fifteen. Do you know whether, you know for fact
05 either way whether the gun was empty when Kyle fired the
06 two shots into the ground?
07 A. That's the thing, I have no, zero idea. I have no
08 idea how many shells were in it, how many he put in. I
09 know he shot twice. I have no idea whether he put in
10 two, and that was it, or if he put in more, and later on
11 that became evident that there was more than two, two
12 rounds in there. Later on in my testimony you'll hear
13 that but --
14 Q. I guess we'll get to that part.
15 A. Yeah. Naturally I had no idea how many were in
16 it, I had no idea.
17 Q. At this point when Kyle is putting the gun, the
18 .22, back in the back seat after firing into the tree
19 knot, you don't know either way whether it's loaded or
21 A. I have no idea.
22 Q. So any which -- everyone back in the truck, you
23 continue driving. What happens?
24 A. Like I said, probably half hour through the woods
25 when we finally came out exit point, I was not exactly
01 sure the name of the road down on Route 11 passed the
02 armory in Chester, I'm not sure if you're familiar with
03 that area, but down there, when we came out -- let me
04 stop. My mom given us a phone call, my brother's cell
05 phone, around four o'clock. She closes early on Sundays,
06 because she has a business, Simply Country, she had been
07 watching Kyle's dog, Harley. He was there. So she
08 called at four o'clock, said I'm getting ready to shut
09 down, you guys need to start making your way back to the
10 store, we have the dog, you need to take your dog. We
11 were like, okay, you know, that's fine. We got out on
12 Route 11, took a right headed back coming into the
13 Chester, got down by Church Street, took a left over
14 Church Street, headed back to the apartment to meet up
15 with my mom, got the dog. We got to the apartment, got
16 the dog, then I was still of being in the back seat after
17 of a 350, a little tight cab, I got to be out of here. I
18 been bounced around in the back seat, I wanted to get my
19 own truck, I wanted to drive now because I only had that
20 one beer, and that was it. And I went inside, I grabbed,
21 I had a pint of vodka that I'd been drinking the night
22 before, and there was probably this much left in the
23 bottom of it, maybe three or four shots' worth. I went
24 in and got that, brought it back out, got in my truck.
25 Kyle had gotten Harley, Jerry, myself, and he brought the
01 .22 in my truck.
02 At this point in time, we were going to
03 head to Springfield, to, up by where my dad lives. We
04 hunt there every year. We were going to go up in that
05 area, go scouting up there. I had mentioned I wanted to
06 go brook fishing, so that was still in the air, maybe
07 thinking about doing that. So we left the store, and we
08 took a right up Tribow Road, headed over to, it's like a,
09 a back road that heads over to Springfield from Chester.
10 We got probably a mile or so up Tribow Road, and the
11 phone rang, Kyle's cell phone rang, and he picked it up,
12 it was Tristan Blanchard, and he was just very
13 distraught, you know, just upset, crying. We were, like,
14 what's, what's going on, what's up, Tristan? He said
15 there have been this guy that was driving by his house
16 back and forth and had been following him earlier that
17 day. He said he was scared, and he said Gib Bastian had
18 called me the night before around ten, ten o'clock. I
19 went to bed around ten-thirty the night before, but Gib
20 had he called me, I briefly talked to him, he said he got
21 punched, he got knocked out. That's all he said. That's
22 all I knew. I didn't know who did it, or he told me
23 Vinny, but I didn't know, I never met the guy before, I
24 didn't know who he was or, you know, anything about him.
25 But anyhow, Tristan had mentioned that
01 this guy Vinny or somebody, you know, I don't know if he
02 said his name, he mentioned he was driving by, he was all
03 scared, this and that, so we opted to turn around. We
04 said we'll come, you know, pick you up, get you out of
05 there, because he was worried about he was there with
06 Michelle and Jordan Ebelt, they was worried about, I
07 mean, about Vinny coming back to his house, I guess, from
08 what he was saying, so we're, like, we'll come get you.
09 So we turned around, went back down Tribow Road, took a
10 left, back down Church Street, back into the Chester, and
11 went to his house. When I pulled up at his apartment, he
12 was, like, you know, pacing back and forth like fifty
13 yards from his house, just pacing back and forth. So I
14 pulled up into his little parking area, he came walking,
15 and Michelle and Jordan were outside, and he was just,
16 you know, teared out as could be, you know. Just calm
17 down, calm down, get in the truck, come with us, we'll
18 get you out of here, try to calm down, you know, we will
19 talk to you. He had talked to Gib, and he told Gib to
20 come over, so we were going to have Gib and Michelle --
21 excuse me, Michelle and Jordan go with Gib to get them
22 out of there, too. There wasn't enough room in the truck
23 for all of us to pack in, obviously, to get everybody out
24 of there. So we got Tristan in the car, Michelle and
25 Jordan waited for Gib. Gib was on his way, so we left.
01 I think we did a quick loop. I took a right by Jiffy
02 Mart, took a quick loop around Chester, I believe like
03 just a little circle, and then we headed out, headed out
04 towards Ludlow, that area. Not sure what route, what
05 route is that? I'm not sure. But we were headed out
06 that way. We took Gassetts, then we took a right by
07 Gassetts by the old driving range, and we headed into,
08 towards Springfield. Well, that was, as I was driving,
09 Tristan's in the back seat, then he started relaying all
10 the information that he had about, you know, the Thursday
11 I guess, if it started Thursday, Friday, he started
12 relaying to us about the information how he was at home,
13 sitting at home with Ben, and he said that all of a
14 sudden he looks over, and there's somebody in his house,
15 so he was obviously, you know, scared, he told me every-
16 thing that had happened with that situation. He said
17 that somebody, he had stolen something, he just said the
18 guy wouldn't leave, basically looked, you know, just all
19 messed up, and just wouldn't leave. So he, he seemed to
20 me he just wanted to do anything he could to get this man
21 out of his house, give him whatever he wanted. I would
22 have given him my plasma TV, whatever he wanted, I would
23 have given to him, I didn't want him in my house. And he
24 just showed up. So, you know, left. I'm not sure
25 exactly what happened with this whole situation, but, you
01 know, he went down Mike Gleason's and got Mike Gleason
02 and they went to Springfield, whatever, I'm not exactly
03 sure what happened, but, you know, he was just reliving
04 all the events, talking to us. He was scared. He said,
05 you know, I never been so scared for myself, I never been
06 so scared for my girl friend, never felt so worthless,
07 never felt so less of a man, he says, you know, I never
08 felt in Vermont like I feel like I need a weapon for
09 self, you know, but I do, I feel like I need something,
10 he says I can't sleep, he sales I think the guy's going
11 to come back tonight because I think he's going to come
12 back. He says, really he was, he said he was trying to
13 get some sort of a weapon from his girl friend's father,
14 but that hadn't happened, and so I was kind of like, you
15 need some self-defense, don't you, and well, that's what
16 he had initiated before is he said he was trying to get a
17 weapon, and I said, well, you have anything around? He
18 said, no, I have nothing, I don't have nothing. So I had
19 mentioned that I had had a weapon, a weapon at my
20 apartment he could borrow, just merely possess for that
21 night in case Vinny came back that night with a gun, and
22 he would have something. That was the only intention
23 I had. Was, you know, just to try and help him out
24 because he was so scared and teared up, like I said, in
25 the back seat. Just so I'm --
01 Q. So at this point Tristan's sitting in the back
02 seat of your truck?
03 A. Right. He is in the back seat with the dog just
04 petting the dog, and he's just, you know, worked up.
05 Jerry is also in the back seat. My brother Kyle is in
06 the front passenger side, and I'm driving my truck.
07 Q. When you transferred the .22 to your truck, where
08 did it go, under the back seat?
09 A. In the back somewhere.
10 Q. In the back where?
11 A. I'm not exactly sure. Kyle -- I went inside, when
12 I came back out, they were in the truck, all right, you
14 Q. Okay. So you're, you're offering Tristan the
15 opportunity to borrow your gun that you have got back at
16 your apartment, but no one's offering Kyle's gun just
17 because it's Kyle's and you don't want to offer it?
18 A. Right, right. I, that has, I don't know why,
19 Kyle, you want to take the .22 or whatever, I just said I
20 have --
21 Q. Because you're sitting right on top of it?
22 A. I don't know, it's Kyle's. We were going to use
23 it for scouting earlier, that's why it was in my truck.
24 We were just going scouting in Springfield, and he always
25 brings that .22 with him just in case, you never know,
01 black bear, whatever, but so I don't know why Kyle didn't
02 say I have another weapon at my house, if you would like
03 to have it, that was, you know, whether it was a good
04 decision or not, it was my thinking that he was so scared
05 and worried, you know, and he said I need, I want, I need
06 something, I know I never seen him so scared. Or anybody
07 so scared. Or like especially around here in these
08 parts, you know, everybody is kind of talks to each other
09 and everybody knows everybody, and this wasn't your
10 average situation where, you know, couple of buddies can
11 protect you or whatever, it wasn't, didn't seem like that
12 to him at all, obviously, because he was saying he wanted
13 to move out, and, not comfortable in his own home, and
14 never felt like less of a man, so --
15 Q. Just to back up for a second, because just, we
16 have some people here who might not be hunters or
17 relative of hunters. Scouting, what's that?
18 A. Just go out before deer season, you know, try and
19 spend some time out in the woods before the season to,
20 you know, just look and see where deer moving through
21 this area, geez, they are not moving through this area,
22 they are moving through this area, just to try to narrow
23 down the entire woods into one spot that you may --
24 Q. You're trying too find where you'll be most likely
25 to see deer during the hunting season later in the year?
01 A. Right, yes, looking for grub lines, you know,
02 scrapes on the trees, you know, just stuff like that. My
03 brother is an avid hunter, he lives to hunt and fish. I
04 like fishing, as well. I do hunt, but I'm not nearly as
05 into it as Kyle is. You know, if he had his way, he's
06 spend twenty-four/seven in the woods. That's how he is,
07 he just loves it, he lives to hunt and fish so --
08 Q. Now why might you bring a firearm with you when
09 you're going scouting?
10 Why, why, what's that
11 Q. Why would you, a person bring a firearm with them
12 when they were going scouting?
13 A. Because, like I said, this time of year there's a
14 lot of black bear in the woods, coyotes, black bear, a
15 lot of black bear having cubs this time of the year.
16 We're seeing bear up in my area of where we hunt quite
17 regularly. We see black bear, you don't want to be out
18 in the woods with no protection if a black bear comes
19 charging you. I mean, that's --
20 Q. Let's talk about that for a second. There's a
21 dedicated season for hunting bear?
22 A. That's true, yeah.
23 Q. Now, I know it wasn't your intent to go hunt that
24 day, not saying you would.
25 A. Right.
01 Q. But a bear, about how big an animal is black bear
02 on average?
03 A. Two-fifty, three hundred pounds, three-fifty.
04 Q. Three hundred pounds compared to a deer weighing
05 about how much?
06 A. I guess I don't understand. Deer, I mean, the
07 deer range from size between how old they are, I mean --
08 Q. Right, right. But, I mean, if you're saying
09 ballpark for a black bear, two hundred fifty three
10 hundred pounds, for the ballpark, for a deer?
11 A. A hundred pounds to two hundred pounds, probably
12 the biggest.
13 Q. And --
14 A. Dressed.
15 Q. What size caliber rifle do we typically use to
16 hunt deer?
17 A. Whatever the individual chooses, anywhere from
18 probably a two-forty through to bigger, you know, thirty-
20 Q. Bigger would be, yeah, 30-06, like your rifle?
21 A. Yeah, or tw -- I hunt with a .270. Kyle uses a
22 30-08. Multiple calibers of weapons.
23 Q. Now, you needed to take down an animal that's
24 bigger than deer, maybe two, three times as big, maybe
25 like a black bear, does it follow that you would want to
01 use an even larger caliber of rifle?
02 A. You might. But, you know, at the same point in
03 time, it's not like bear, can, a lot of time with black
04 bear and stuff like that, once you see them, or once they
05 see you, if you were to take a .22 and fire off a couple
06 shots, they'd be scared and they'd run for the most part,
07 unless they really felt their cubs in danger, in which
08 they'll charge you. In the most part, you're mostly
09 safe. It was just kind of precautionary to have a .22 in
10 case, you know. As to whether that would kill that bear
11 or not, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But it was just
12 a precautionary type thing to more or less, like I said,
13 if you shoot a couple times, they hear that noise,
14 they're trained to go the other way, not they're not
15 coming to you, in most situations, but you never know.
16 Q. Just so I'm understanding the idea in bringing a
17 .22 while you're scouting, so that if you see a bear or a
18 coyote, you're going to be able to make some noise and
19 scare it so it wouldn't threaten you?
20 A. (Indicates)
21 Q. Okay. Anyway, I interrupted you. You were just
22 finishing up telling us that Tristan brought you fully up
23 to date and everything that happened, and he was seating
24 in the back seat?
25 A. Yes, yes.
01 Q. What's happening from there?
02 A. From there, like I said, we headed out toward
03 Proctorsville way, Gassetts way. We took a right, we are
04 coming into Springfield. He was still just relaying
05 some, you know, instances about what happened. We got
06 into Springfield, I stopped at the Midway Mobile in North
07 Springfield. I went to the bathroom. We got back in the
08 truck, proceeded into town -- not into town, I took a
09 left, went up to Cherry Hill, went back a couple job
10 sites I work at landscaping, been there for three years.
11 I got done a couple jobs, I took them up by that area
12 just to show the guys what I'd done. We went up, saw
13 that, headed back, and by the new, the new rec center,
14 they had just built swimming pool and everything. From
15 there we went to T-Birds, the mini mart there and pulled
16 in there. I think Kyle went in and got a pack of
17 cigarettes. He came out, we just sat there for a little
18 bit. That is when, you know, Jerry was in the back seat
19 with Tristan, and like I said, we just barely got, just
20 got done talking about it, and Jerry said well, you
21 know -- Tristan first said I'd like for this all just to
22 be over, you know, I don't know what to do anymore -- and
23 Jerry says, well we should try to get ahold of this guy
24 and try and figure this out, try and, you know, talk
25 to him and see what's going on, ask him why you keep
01 following this kid, why you following our friends, just,
02 you know, just to talk. That was merely it.
03 Q. Now, before you get into what Jerry's about to do,
04 give us an update on any alcohol consumptions since you
05 switched trucks?
06 A. Since we switched trucks, nothing. I, I had one
07 beer, that was it. And I didn't see Kyle drinking
08 nothing. He was a passenger, he wasn't drinking, I
09 didn't see him drinking, but I knew Jerry had had one or
10 two, but I don't think they was drinking since we been in
11 my truck, I don't know if he was or not, he was in the
12 back seat. And that's pretty much it.
13 Q. Who had possession of that vodka that you'd been
14 drinking the night before and put in your truck?
15 A. I had had it, but I'm pretty sure I put it in the
16 back seat when I got -- because I didn't have it, wasn't
17 in the front seat, I wasn't drinking it. I was drinking,
18 I had one beer earlier, that was it. I was waiting until
19 later until I was going to drink it. Just a little bit
20 that was left, that was it, but think it may it been in
21 the back seat.
22 Q. Okay. That was all I was looking for. So now I
23 interrupted you again. Tell us, Jerry is about to do
24 something. What did he do?
25 A. He calls Tristan, his, Kirby's, Kirby Donahue's
01 cell phone. Jerry and Kirby went to Green Mountain
02 together so they kind of know each other. I think he
03 calls Kirby, I'm not exactly sure on this stuff, I don't
04 know, because, I was in the front seat, they were in the
05 back. But somehow Jerry gets on the phone with Kirby and
06 asks to talk to Vinny, and Vinny at first doesn't come to
07 the phone, but then he does pick up the phone, and Jerry
08 and Vinny engage in some sort of a conversation, that is
09 the content of that, not really sure. I just hear him
10 talking in the back, you know, asking him what's going
11 on. He says Vinny's like, I can hear Vinny saying, you
12 know, you don't want to me mess with me, or something.
13 Q. So Vinny saying it that loud you could hear it?
14 A. I could hear him say that one thing. I wasn't
15 listening in, but I did catch that, you know, one thing.
16 I heard him saying that because I heard him say, you
17 know, you don't want to mess with me. I don't know, they
18 were just going back and forth, kind of. And I could
19 hear him on the phone getting elevated, and then I could
20 hear him say that. You know, I didn't know what he was
21 saying prior, but I heard him say you don't want to mess
22 with me. And then him and Jerry kind of got into a
23 little disagreement, and then Vinny hung up, and then I
24 think Vinny called back Jerry's phone, and that's when
25 Jerry -- see, I don't know if Jerry had talked to Tim
01 Arbuckle initially, he must have, because that was when
02 Jerry says meet me down the ball field. Jerry wouldn't
03 have said meet me down the ball field if he hadn't have
04 talked to Tim Arbuckle. Tim is the one that said, you
05 know, come down to the ball field. He was down there
06 playing softball and everything else. You know, Tim is
07 a, the tough guy, he's supposed to be a tough, he's a
08 tough kid. I guess we're all concerned, I guess. But I
09 wasn't talking, so I can't tell you exactly what was
10 said. But we said, you know, meet us at, Jerry said meet
11 me at the ball field. So then we left T-Birds, and I
12 started driving through the town of Springfield and went
13 out Chester Road. We got most of the way down Chester
14 Road, and I got behind a very slow moving car,
15 out-of-state car, very slow moving, and it was an
16 opportunity to pass, so I passed him, and I looked over
17 at the woman, and she was just like, like mad at me for
18 passing her. I didn't know why. But I came around the
19 corner, and then I saw state trooper pull in turnaround,
20 and then pull back out and went by me, and he just kept
21 going right by me, so I obviously, I didn't think, you
22 know, I didn't know if I'd done anything wrong, but I saw
23 him turning back around, then he drove right by me, then
24 I saw a lady in the rear-view mirror flashing the lights
25 trying to get the state cop's attention, so I figured
01 maybe she tried to pull him over and say this guy is
02 driving too fast. I only passed her fifty-five. It's a
03 fifty right there, but like I said, she didn't seem very
04 happy about it. She was trying to get the state trooper
05 to pull over. I kind of got a little worried at that
06 point in time because Tristan had indicated to me that he
07 might have a little marijuana with him. Jerry had a
08 little marijuana with him, too, so I was, as the driver,
09 a little teared up and nervous, you know, now Tristan
10 just told me I have a little bit of pot with me. I just
11 passed a car, I didn't know if the state trooper was
12 coming back or what. I, I got right into Chester, took
13 the immediate next right-hand turn on Green Mountain
14 Turnpike, went down Green Mountain Turnpike, and at this
15 point in time none of us are even thinking about Vinny or
16 ballpark, anything. We're all just, I'm more concerned
17 about I don't want, you know, have marijuana in my car
18 when I get pulled over and get in trouble with that, so I
19 took a right up Crow Hill, which is another road that
20 kind of runs parallel with Tribow. It goes over to
21 Springfield. So I headed up Crow Hill, got, I think,
22 almost to the end of Crow Hill, and I asked Tristan if he
23 would please drive. I didn't really want to drive any-
24 more. I told you I was worried with the marijuana
25 he had. It, it was my truck, I just felt maybe be him
01 driving rather than me driving. And he said, you know,
02 that's fine, I'll drive. So I pulled over, he got in,
03 Kyle got in the back seat, I got in the front seat of my
04 truck, obviously not going to sit in the back of my own
05 truck. So -- sorry. So then we proceeded, took, at this
06 point in time, I said, you know, since we're out here,
07 Tristan and I, why don't we go to Gib's, Gib's, with
08 Michelle, Tristan's girl friend, and Jordan Ebelt. They
09 had, remember Gib had picked them up earlier when we had
10 met Tristan. So, Tristan drove to Gib's house. We all
11 got out. Gib wasn't there, though, so Tristan called
12 Gib, says where are you? He says I'm in Chester right
13 now. My truck was on E at this point in time, so our
14 initial idea was to have Gib come meet us there, leave my
15 truck there, and go with those guys and go hang out with
16 those guys. Well, he says, why don't you just meet us in
17 Chester or something, so Tristan says, all right, let's
18 just go back into Chester. And we're there probably, you
19 know, five, ten minutes, and since we had made the
20 original, Jerry had made the original phone call at
21 T-Birds, you know, we've been into Springfield, down the
22 Chester Road, past the state cop, went on Green Mountain
23 Turnpike up to Crow Hill, went to Gib's, and then we
24 proceeded back down Tribow Road headed back towards the
25 apartments. We got down Tribow Road, took a left, went
01 back to my apartment. That's when I ran inside because
02 my truck was on E, we were getting out of my truck, you
03 know, the state cop had seen my truck, I didn't know if
04 they were looking for it or weren't, but either way, I
05 just wanted to, you know, park my truck, and we are going
06 to get in Kyle's truck. We pulled in there, I remember
07 asking Tristan, saying, Tristan, do you still want that,
08 do you still feel you need that, and he, he was, you
09 know, still upset, and he was kind, to me he indicated
10 that, yes, he did, he acknowledged to me, he acknowledged
11 that he did. So I went inside, got the 30-06, got the
12 clip, clip had the shells in it. But I always, I don't
13 keep the clip in the gun. I keep the clip in a little
14 container. I have the weapon, I have in my closet, I
15 have two rifles. So I got the 30-06, got the clip, came
16 back out, because at this point in time Tristan had
17 talked to us and said, we all talked, we said they were
18 going to go back to Tristan's house, have a couple beers,
19 that's why I say at this point in time we were not even
20 thinking about going down to the ball field. We were
21 worried about other things, and we just, you know, it
22 wasn't, we weren't concentrating on going down to the
23 ball field at that point in time, to be perfectly honest
24 with you.
25 Q. Let me stop you for a second. About the 30-06, so
01 You've got the rifle, you've got the clip. Are there
02 already rounds in the clip?
03 A. Yeah.
04 Q. How many rounds in the clip?
05 A. I don't know. It's just, you can't, probably
07 Q. You just see if there's one on top for your --
08 A. At least two, because if there's only one, you can
09 see on. They off set, you put one in, the other, and the
10 other, so there was at least two, but I normally keep
11 four in there.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Not exactly sure but --
14 Q. Any extra rounds come with you like in your
15 pockets or anything like that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Any round that caliber in Kyle's truck already?
18 A. Not that I know of. Not that I know of. Maybe,
19 maybe not. I don't know.
20 Q. Okay. So you got the clip, you got the gun?
21 A. Yep. I come out, and Kyle is getting in, they
22 were all getting in his truck now. I see him grab the
23 .22, put it in the back seat. I come out, I get in, with
24 the 30-06. Kyle then indicates Tristan how to use it,
25 says it's pretty self-explanatory with this, put the clip
01 in the bottom of it, pull the pin back, and you're ready.
02 He didn't, he didn't pull it, do that, he just, he just
03 told him.
04 Q. Does that happen inside? Are you all inside the
05 truck when that was happening?
06 A. Right, but he's not, he's not actually physically
07 doing it. He's telling him.
08 Q. Oh, sure, sure, sure. So I'm just wondering, so
09 where's Kyle sitting when this is happening?
10 A. He is in the passenger seat. I had asked, or,
11 yeah, I had wanted to drive this truck, he just got a new
12 F350, just barely, only had it couple weeks or so, a
13 month, maybe. I wanted to drive his truck. I still
14 wasn't drinking or anything. I had that one beer
15 earlier. And so I wanted to drive, you know. Now that
16 we were in different vehicle, not sure whether Tristan
17 still had the marijuana or not, gotten rid of it, threw
18 it out the window, because I was going to drive.
19 Q. So you're in the driver's seat?
20 A. Yep, I just gotten in, to the driver's seat, and
21 we put the 30-06 in the back, the clip went in the glove
23 Q. Who put the clip in the glove box?
24 A. Kyle.
25 Q. Before or after the demonstration with Tristan how
01 it works?
02 A. That's after.
03 Q. So, Kyle does the demonstration. Is he holding
04 the 30-06 and the clip?
05 A. No, just the clip. I handed him the clip, he put
06 it in the glove box, and the 30-06 went to the back seat.
07 The .22 at this point in time was in the back seat, but
08 coming to the front seat, you know, butt end towards the
09 front seat towards the, you know, you just, could just
10 barely see it in the front seat. It was angled up like
11 that in the middle. Those guys, because there was one
12 person in each seat, the rifle was angled up, barrel to
13 the floor, butt end by the middle console in the middle
14 of truck so you could barely see it.
15 Q. So anyway, now everybody in the truck, Tristan
16 just got the demonstration, Kyle's put the clip in the
17 glove box?
18 A. Yep.
19 Q. What's happening next?
20 A. Nothing. We, Tristan says to us, he says, you
21 know, if you guys want, I have ten beers at my house left
22 over from the night before, some Bud Lite. We were all
23 defused about the situation from before, we just wanted
24 to go hang out and drink a couple beers on, you know,
25 Sunday Night. We'd been working seven days a week, like
01 I said, for MJS doing landscaping and working parttime
02 form my old man, so I work seven days a week. I wanted
03 to relax and have a couple beers. I'm twenty-two years
04 old. So Tristan says I got ten beers back at my place,
05 let's go back there, got Bud Lite, if I want to come back
06 there. Yep, it's fine, we headed on Church Street,
07 headed over to Tristan's. But I indicated to Tristan and
08 those guys I didn't want Bud Lite, I like more of a
09 flavor to a beer, like Budweiser, so I was going to go To
10 Jiffy Mart. I pulled into Jiffy Mart, went inside to get
11 a six-pack. I was in the store maybe five minutes, not
12 even, you know, not, just in there five minutes or so.
13 As I came out of the store, got in the truck, Kyle was on
14 the phone with Mike Gleason, apparently.
15 Q. Before we get there for a second, you purchased
16 that six-pack of Budweiser?
17 A. Yep.
18 Q. Are those cans or bottles?
19 A. Bottles.
20 Q. Okay. Go on, continue telling the story about
21 Mike Gleason.
22 A. All right. So as I get in the truck, Kyle had
23 been talking to Mike for a few minutes, and I could just
24 hear Mike talking real loudly saying what happened, and
25 Kyle saying, you know, calm down, what's going on? Mike
01 was saying how Vinny had showed up down there at Mike's
02 place where Gib and Michelle and Jordan were and came
03 inside or knocked on the door and was, you know, hounding
04 those guys, telling, trying to get Mike to fight
05 with him. He told Gib some not very good things, told
06 Gib that he wanted to kill him and rape his family or
07 something like that. And Mike obviously, Mike Gleason is
08 a very, he's a, I don't know tough guy, saw him, he's a
09 big guy, you know, of our friends, he's a bigger guy, and
10 he was just, he was scared to death of this guy, as well,
11 you know, he didn't want nothing to do with this guy.
12 And so from what I understand, Vinny had left, but Mike
13 said come down this way. So that's what started, that's
14 why we weren't, because from Jiffy Mart you take a right
15 to go to Tristan's, we took a left back down toward the
16 ball field because Mike lives right across from the ball
17 field. Mike was worried, and everybody else, said can
18 you come down here? Or not sure exactly what was said,
19 but Kyle said go that way, so I took a left and headed
20 down that way. When we got down, we crossed the bridge,
21 when I got down to Mike's house, I saw Mike, Adrianne,
22 and Gib, and Michelle, and Jordan, they were all outside
23 very concerned looking, and Mike waved us on, I don't
24 know why, probably because he didn't want Vinny to come
25 back to his house and see, you know, Kyle's truck there
01 or whatever. He didn't want him to come back.
02 Q. As you're driving by Mike's house, you guys have
03 the windows up or down?
04 A. I don't know. I can't answer that.
05 Q. Are you able to talk with him at all?
06 A. No. No, he just was waving us on like this.
07 Q. So you didn't hear him yelling anything at you?
08 A. He didn't yell anything. He just was like, that.
09 Q. No one in your vehicle yelled anything at him?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. No other noises like that could be
12 described as hooting and hollering, anything like that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. So he waves you on, you guys keep driving?
15 A. Yes, we keep driving, and the next left is the
16 ball field. I was originally turning into there to turn
17 around, turned in there, somebody had said, we'll just
18 pull down, I think it might have been Jerry, just pull
19 down to the ball field, let's go talk to Tim. So that's
20 what I did, I pulled down there. As I was pulling down,
21 Tim was out there. I rolled down the window. He just
22 said, you know, pull the truck up over there, and so
23 that's what I did, I pulled down as far as I could, got
24 out, I locked -- we all got out, I locked the truck with
25 the weapons in it, the dog was in it. Me, Tristan,
01 Jerry, Kyle got out.
02 Q. How'd you lock the truck?
03 A. I don't know. If I did it with the padlock or if,
04 Kyle did it, oh, or with the key, the door, or if I did
05 it. I'm not exactly sure.
06 Q. You know the truck got locked?
07 A. The truck got locked, but I'm pretty sure, you
08 know, that I, I locked it but --
09 Q. Where, where, do you know where the keys are?
10 A. They keys were in my pocket.
11 Q. Okay. All right.
12 A. So I got out, with my six-pack. All the guys, all
13 the softball guys, they were in the back of the tent
14 throwing a pink ball off it trying to get it come down
15 and land in a cup. That's what they were going for fun.
16 I says, gee, that's looks like fun, I went over there and
17 started talking to those guys. Casey Brickey, I think,
18 asked me what was going on, what's going on. I didn't
19 really know what was going on other than just minute
20 information. I didn't know nothing about this guy or
21 anything, I just was kind of involved a little bit that
22 day, I just kind of chucked this off, didn't say anything
23 to him. I started to talk to Tim about completely
24 different, just started talking to other people about
25 totally different things. Vinny was nowhere to be found.
01 I had learned he had already stopped down there one time
02 already because originally Jerry said meet me in fifteen
03 minutes. Well, fifteen minutes, we end up going all over
04 the place, so by this time, it was like an hour or so at
05 least from when we originally talked to him that we were
06 there, so, that's when I got out with my six-pack, my
07 little bit of vodka, and I went over to the guys, and I
08 was talking a little bit. I drank two beers, and I had
09 two shots when I was down there at the field. But I
10 wasn't, I wasn't even with Kyle or Jerry and Tristan.
11 I'm not sure exactly where those guys went. Like I said,
12 they were playing that game, and I just said, you know,
13 I'm going to, went over towards that way. And so I was
14 just talking to the other guys. I can't say where Kyle
15 or Tristan or any, any of those guys were. I was just
16 over with the main group of people, talking with them,
17 like I said, in that fifteen, twenty-minute period from
18 when we had gotten there to when the car pulled up with,
19 Vinny was in, I had the, that to drink.
20 Q. Let me back you up for a second. Does any other
21 vehicle arrive close in time to where, when Kyle's Ford
22 pulls up?
23 A. Gib, Michelle, and Jordan had, they were at Mike's
24 when we went by. They got in their car and followed us
25 down, I believe, also, but other than that, that's the
01 only two vehicles.
02 Q. Do you see them park near you?
03 A. I didn't see them physical park near us, but
04 obviously I know where his car was in location to Kyle's
05 truck during this thing, so he did park, you know, near
06 Kyle. I didn't see him park because we got down there,
07 and they weren't right behind us. I had gotten out and
08 went over to the tent area, and then he pulled up, so I
09 didn't see him physically pull up, no.
10 Q. Okay. But where -- did you learn that Gib's
11 vehicle was parked relative to Kyle's truck?
12 A. When did I learn that?
13 Q. Where, where was it parked when you learned that
14 it was parked there?
15 A. Say again.
16 Q. At some point you learned that Gib's vehicle was
17 parked somewhere near the truck?
18 A. Yeah, when this whole Incident happened.
19 Q. What --
20 A. When the incident unraveled, that's when I
22 Q. Where, relative to the truck, was Gib's car?
23 A. It was parallel, if you're, if I'm the tent, I'm
24 looking at -- there's Kyle's truck and Gib's car,
25 probably, not sure, they were pretty much parallel. I'm
01 not sure if it was a little bit in front or little bit in
02 back, but it was pretty much parallel.
03 Q. Any other vehicles between Gib's vehicle and
04 Kyle's truck?
05 A. I know there was a green truck right by the tent.
06 I know there was another vehicle right in front of the
07 tent. Then Kyle's truck, Gib's, and then there was
08 another vehicle outside of Gib's vehicle.
09 Q. The one outside of Gib's vehicle, was that, you
10 remember whether it was a truck, passenger car, SUV?
11 A. I'm not sure. Then there was the mobile home off
12 in the corner, or RV, up in the corner.
13 JUROR: Excuse me, I don't mean to, but I
14 have to take a restroom break.
15 (Recess, 2:06 - 2:22 p.m.)
16 MR. KELLEY: What's going to happen is
17 that we fortunately one of our jurors -- it's odd not
18 knowing people's names -- will not be able to be here
19 tomorrow. She's been formally excused.
20 (Off-the-record discussion)
21 MR. KELLEY: Thanks, Corey. Remind you
22 you're still under oath. If you'd like me to read the
23 oath to you again, I could.
24 THE WITNESS: I understand fully.
25 MR. KELLEY: Thanks for giving us that
01 moment's break.
02 THE WITNESS: No problem.
03 BY MR. CAHILL:
04 Q. Okay, so I'll give you a chance to get it in your
06 A. Get it going, yeah.
07 Thank you.
08 Q. So, we're back to the ball field. Most of the
09 people you came with are enthralled with the game
10 throwing the Ping-Pong ball up on the tent and watching
11 it come down?
12 A. Most of people in the softball tournament, they
13 were all right there. I got out and I went over there.
14 Not sure exactly where the other people that were with me
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Until I see this other car, I didn't exactly see
18 the car that they were in pull up. I heard somebody
19 speculating that they were here, then I saw Tim Arbuckle,
20 Jerry, and Kyle start to walk that way towards the, you
21 know, because there was quite a distance between the tent
22 and then the corner where the two fences met, and then
23 where his car or Julie's car was, where they had pulled
24 up was quite some distance, so they started walking up.
25 They got probably half way, and then I kind of was like,
01 you know, maybe I should be up there in case anything
02 happens, so I started walking up. And I was behind them.
03 It was kind of, you know, staggered. Tim was in the
04 front, and Jerry and Kyle, and then I was last, and, you
05 know, kind of a Diagonal line walking up to the fence.
06 As we were walking up there, we got, you know, more up
07 towards the corner of the fence area, Vinny was out of
08 car, and he had this Tazer, he was clicking it, clicking
09 it, and I remember him saying, you know, look how many
10 there are of you, you F-ing pansies, I could take you all
11 on, he says, and he's just clicking that Tazer, you know,
12 just clicking it. I remember Tim saying, come over here,
13 I'm shove that up you're ass. You know. But, that's
14 irrelevant. So, oh, so Tim goes, put it down. And he
15 gives the Tazer to Julie. Julie holds it out the window,
16 I remember, and she clicks it, and she says, she's got
17 it, then I remember just him, he's, he just reaches into
18 the back seat, grabs this splitting maul, pulls it out,
19 and then just starts in a dead sprint, dead sprint
20 towards us all. He has to run straight first to get
21 around that corner of two fences, you know, fences met
22 like this, we were up here, and he started running
23 around. As he got around that corner, you know, we all
24 started running back. As I said, we were in kind of a
25 diagonal line. He first started coming through towards
01 Tim and Jerry's way. That's where Jordan was, too. And
02 he stopped briefly there, and then he started running
03 towards Kyle. And then he turned toward me. He was
04 running right towards me, and he was, he had the axe up
05 like this, he was just going arg, arg, arg, arg, arg,
06 just crazy, like he was just going arg, arg, arg.
07 Thought it was funny. I don't know, it was more of a
08 crazed funny thing. I wasn't laughing. He was pretty
09 fast, too, this kid was fast, you know. So I'm pretty
10 fast, too, but he was running, he was making ground on
11 us, and we were just retreating back as far as we could,
12 you know, he was coming at us. Then he turns from me all
13 of a sudden, just starts running towards Kyle. Kyle had
14 gotten right to the truck, and as I recall, Vinny started
15 coming toward him. I looked over, Kyle was trying to
16 open the door. It was locked.
17 Q. Going to stop you there for a second. We'll just
18 go through everything up to that point. So he's chasing
19 after, initially after the group of guys by Tim, Jerry?
20 A. Like I was, there was Tim, Jerry, Kyle and myself.
21 He was originally to the right of that fence line, like I
22 said, that runs down like there, you know, the fence is
23 ninety degrees, and I was closest to the fence. Then
24 Kyle, then Jerry, then Tim. He was originally way out
25 here to the right. And then he came this way, you know,
01 and like I said, he was running towards Kyle. Then he
02 was coming towards me. He was holding the axe like that,
03 crazed man, and then he started towards Kyle, and I
04 stopped. And the truck was here, I'm right here.
05 Q. Let's say, we're going to do this at some point,
06 so, I'll draw the truck.
07 A. You draw the truck.
08 Q. This is going to be the front of the truck.
09 A. Right.
10 Q. To indicate the front. This is not going to be
11 scale but --
12 A. And the fence line runs down this way.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. You know, ninety. So I stopped here. He was
15 running down towards all of us. At this point in time,
16 he started towards Kyle. I ran down here, stopped. As I
17 looked over this way, I saw Kyle turn. He tried to open
18 the door, which he couldn't, it was locked.
19 Q. Hold on for one second. First you got a big job
20 here. You got to talk toward them, and talk towards the
21 court reporter. So when we're facing this way, we just
22 have to slow down a little bit.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. So anyway, so he's chasing you and Kyle in this
25 direction; right?
01 A. Yes, he's more or less coming straight down here,
02 and I'm, you know, here.
03 Q. So where does your trajectory and Kyle's direction
04 kind of diverge?
05 A. Like I said, Arbuckle was up here, and Jerry and
06 Kyle and me, and like I said, he was coming at Kyle like
07 this, and then kind of came over like this, started
08 running at me. And then Kyle kept running this way to
09 his truck. He's tried to open his door, and he couldn't,
10 and that's when he, Vinny, went like this. And I looked
11 over, I was right here, I looked over, saw Kyle couldn't
12 open it, and I saw, then saw Kyle slip, he falls to the
13 ground. Just as he's getting up, Vinny comes and bangs
14 the side of this truck.
15 Q. Stop there for a second. Now, so is Vinny, is he
16 not sure what his target is initially because he focuses
17 on Kyle, then he looks at you as if like you might be
18 interesting, then he looks back towards Kyle?
19 A. That's the thing, when he comes around that fence,
20 he's looking at all of us, you know, he's coming at all
21 of us, more or less, which one of you am I going to
22 catch. It seems to me like he wants to catch one of us
23 to do bodily harm, not just to scare us with the axe. I
24 feel he's coming out to hurt us with this axe. Like I
25 said, he kind of, he kind of started his way here, then
01 came this way. I'm not sure who he was picking out or
02 why, but we, we, me and Kyle didn't even know him. I
03 don't even know what he looks like. If you had a picture
04 of him right now, I couldn't tell you it was him. I
05 don't know why he would pick us out of all people to come
06 towards, but he was coming at me. And then he turned to
07 Kyle. When I saw Kyle can't, Kyle try to get to the
08 truck, that's when he realized, okay, maybe I can get
09 this guy, you know, this guy is, because he was right on
10 our heels, the distance wasn't much, and when Kyle
11 couldn't get in, he just full strength right toward Kyle.
12 Q. If Vinny hadn't been distracted by you and kept
13 going right after Kyle, would he have caught Kyle before
14 Kyle got in the truck?
15 A. Say that again.
16 Q. So, if Vinny hadn't been distracted by looking at
17 you and maybe going towards you a little bit, would he
18 have caught Kyle sooner?
19 A. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Kyle was running back,
20 and he was gaining on Kyle. I could see him gaining on
21 Kyle. I'm pretty fast, like I said, I was just running,
22 and I was just running back, I wasn't really too
23 concerned he was going to catch me, you know, I was just
24 retreating back, retreating back, retreating back. And
25 then something told him to go after Kyle, you know,
01 whether it was Kyle couldn't get in the truck, he
02 realized at this point in time he could go get him, he
03 realized kind of trying to get to the truck, he couldn't,
04 and he went behind toward Kyle.
05 Q. So Kyle makes it over to the driver's side door of
06 the truck?
07 A. Yeah, driver's side.
08 Q. And he's now facing the door, his back is to
10 A. Yeah, the way it seemed, yeah, I was right here.
11 You know, a little ways out. Fence line, I was right
12 next to the fence. I was looking right at it.
13 Q. So how far are you from Kyle by the driver's side
15 A. I want to say probably thirty feet.
16 Q. Okay. Away from Kyle. Now, how do you know that
17 Kyle's trying to get in the door?
18 A. Because he says, unlock the truck, Kyle says that.
19 Unlock the truck. So I look over, see Kyle had slipped.
20 I saw him getting up. And Vinny was just right on top of
21 him. Right then as Kyle is getting up, Vinny came in and
22 did one of these, and it was this close.
23 Q. So Kyle is, so he's already slipped, and he's in
24 the process of coming back up when Vinny comes in with
25 the first axe?
01 A. Right.
02 Q. Is Kyle almost, as he's getting up, almost
03 unknowingly getting into the, almost in the way of the
04 first axe?
05 A. No, Kyle was getting up, and then Vinny realized
06 he slipped, so he was coming in like to hit him with it,
07 just barely missed him, to me. It wasn't like Vinny was
08 coming from to hit the side of the truck for no reason.
09 He was coming in because Kyle was trying to get in, he
10 couldn't get in, he went back towards Kyle. I don't know
11 how Kyle slipped, but he did, and then he was trying, as
12 he was getting up, you know, there was a lot of other
13 people, bigger person, Gib, maybe, somebody else didn't
14 have that reaction time, Kyle didn't really know, he
15 turned around, there was Vinny, maybe would have gotten
16 hit by that, you know.
17 Q. How does Kyle avoid the axe blow as he's getting
19 A. He just like moved a little bit. I just saw Kyle
20 move his head like that. I saw --
21 Q. When he's getting up, is he now still facing the
22 truck, or is he turned around?
23 A. He got, he gets up like this, looks back, that's
24 when the axe went bang, right there. Right, you know,
25 this close. He's getting up, looks back, and he goes
01 like that, that's when the kid hits.
02 Q. How high was the axe blow?
03 A. It was, I'm not exactly sure, but it was, you
04 know, probably midway in between, midway up the door.
05 Q. So Kyle gets up, now he's just dodged the blow,
06 now is he, the axe has just hit the door. Is he now to
07 the rear of the axe or forward of the axe?
08 A. Appeared to be to the rear. You know, he's behind
09 the axe, first axe.
10 Q. The axe, axe blow came in the front?
11 A. To the front.
12 Q. The first axe blow comes in the front of him;
13 that's the one he just dodges?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. So then what does he do next?
16 A. See, this point in time, I saw, I just kind of him
17 hit once more, but I looked away, and that's why my
18 original testimony, I thought that Kyle had gotten in to
19 the driver's door and gotten out the passenger side.
20 Because when I relooked, he came around like this, I
21 looked over, and I saw Kyle, I saw that the door open, I
22 saw him getting the rifle out of the, you know, he gotten
23 the rifle out. So I didn't, but it was unclear to me
24 whether he came around the truck or went through the
25 truck. I didn't see that axe. I just saw the first,
01 second axe blow, and then I looked away, you know, I, I
02 looked the opposite way. And then as I came around, I
03 saw Kyle getting out of the passenger side.
04 Q. Now --
05 A. Unclear to me whether he went around or went
07 JUROR: How could he have gone through,
08 because it was locked?
09 THE WITNESS: I had unlocked the truck
10 door when he said unlock it. He said unlock it. I'm
11 looking for the keys.
12 JUROR: So at this point you knew the door
13 was unlocked and he could have gone through?
14 THE WITNESS: Right, the driver's side
15 window is smashed, he smashed the window right out with
16 the axe. Kyle's dog was flipping out, barking, and like
17 I said, original testimony I think I thought he hit the
18 truck probably four, five, six times.
19 BY MR. CAHILL:
20 Q. Right after Kyle almost gets hit with the axe and
21 when the axe lands just to the, to the front of him, you
22 look away; right?
23 A. I saw one more blow into the side of the truck
24 just in the side, side of truck when he hits once and hit
25 again --
01 Q. Is Kyle --
02 A. -- through the windshield.
03 Q. Is Kyle looking around to see that second blow, or
04 is he moving in a certain direction?
05 A. He's moving, but like I said, I kind of looked
06 away, and I didn't, I just didn't see where he went. I,
07 you know --
08 Q. What were you looking --
09 A. Obviously he didn't come this way.
10 Q. Right, because that would have been --
11 A. He would have swung right by me, exactly, so
12 either went, got by Vinny, when he, or he went, I thought
13 he went through the truck, but I didn't seen that. In my
14 original testimony, I thought he got out here. What I
15 saw is him opening up the passenger door.
16 Q. So you look away; which direction are you looking?
17 A. I looked this way, I just looked around, and I
18 remember looking away briefly, just looking away briefly.
19 I turned back around, Kyle was on this side of the truck.
20 I didn't know how.
21 Q. Toward the bathroom or something like that?
22 A. I just looked, I turned my body around.
23 Q. Do you know why he did that?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Anything you, anything else that you were trying
01 to assess?
02 A. I honestly can't tell you. At this point in time,
03 I'm just, I'm worked up at this point in time, you know.
04 I wasn't just to sit there and be like -- so then I
05 started to move, you know, push around this way. Because
06 after that, when Kyle is over here, I thought maybe he
07 would come at me, you know, so I'm standing here. And I
08 noticed Kyle getting out over here, so I started moving
09 around over here. Gib's car was over here.
10 Q. Hold up for second. So you see Kyle get, actually
11 getting out of truck on this side?
12 A. No, getting, that's what I mean, I don't know if
13 he was, I thought originally that's why I thought he'd
14 gotten in and out, but he was just getting the rifle out.
15 Q. So, just so we're clear, you see him unloading the
16 rifle as opposed to seeing him step out of the truck?
17 A. Right. I see him go like this with the rifle.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. He had gotten it out of the truck. But it was
20 unclear to me when he got in and got out with the rifle
21 or whether he had, you know --
22 Q. So at this point, you know he didn't come around
23 this side because you were there?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. And maybe he went through because you unlocked it?
01 A. Right, but, you know.
02 Q. Could he have crawled underneath the truck?
03 A. He could have. It was unclear to me. I took my
04 attention, I looked back like there for a second, looked
05 back around. Obviously things were happening, like this,
06 and emotions were high when I looked back, and that's all
07 I can say. I saw Kyle on this side of the truck, and I
08 was on this side of the truck, and Vinny was on this side
09 of the truck, and I said this ain't good, you know, no, I
10 don't really want to be in this situation. I was over by
11 the beer tent. I did a big loop around the beer tent.
12 As I'm looking around this way, that's when I can't --
13 Gib's car was here, though, and there was another car I
14 couldn't see, I heard the first shot.
15 Q. As you're looping around outside of Gib's car or
16 coming between --
17 A. No, no, I am, Gib's car is right like, right, I
18 looped way around.
19 Q. Wide loop?
20 A. Wide loop, wide loop.
21 Q. So you hear the first shot?
22 A. First, the first shot. I'm like, I couldn't see
23 nothing, I couldn't see what had happened. I thought
24 Kyle shot on the ground as a warning shot. I didn't
25 think the kid had been touched. When I looked over, I
01 couldn't, I could then see Kyle, and I could see Vinny
02 getting down like he had the axe like this he was getting
03 down like this, like trying to, you know, not like Kyle,
04 nowhere, he was, you know, trying to be the element of
05 surprise. I could see him going like this.
06 Q. So right after, right after shot number one, how
07 soon after you hear the gun go off do you actually have a
08 clear view of where Kyle and Vinny are?
09 A. Probably couple seconds, you know, I hear the shot
10 as I'm in route, I looked over, couldn't see nothing
11 through Gib's car. I went up a couple more steps.
12 That's when I could see Vinny over here, getting down
13 like that.
14 Q. So Vinny's over on the passenger side after shot
15 number one?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. He's, and he's getting down with kind of, I want
18 to say almost a crouching position?
19 A. He was weird. He was going like there, so Kyle
20 wouldn't see him, up over the truck. Kyle was, I
21 couldn't exactly see where Kyle's position was. I just
22 looked over and like I had, I saw Vinny with the axe like
23 this just going like this. That's all I saw. Then I
24 kept, I moved into the giant loop around.
25 Q. So you continued looping around this way around
01 the truck, several other vehicles?
02 A. This, this diagram would probably be helpful.
03 Q. We can use it at -- use it if you want?
04 A. This too big, you know, to give you the idea
05 what's going on.
06 Q. How about this? This is not to scale, so some of
07 distances are not accurate?
08 A. Right. This helps me.
09 Q. This is the F350?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. This is probably Gib's car?
12 A. Yep, that's Gib's car.
13 Q. That's the tent?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. SAND: When you say this --
16 MR. CAHILL: Okay.
17 BY MR. CAHILL:
18 Q. V-1 is Kyle's F350, V-4 is Gib's sedan, the tent
19 is the tent? I think all the others are labeled.
20 A. Oh, man. Yeah, I started moving around like this,
21 first shot happens. I can't see nothing. Obviously I
22 get up to here, I can see through this way right through
23 here, I can see Vinny trying to get down. I moved all
24 the way around the tent, came all the way over it here by
25 this green truck. V-5 is the green truck. I moved all
01 the way over to here. At this point in time when I got
02 all the way over to here, I stopped. That's when
03 registered in my mind, okay, there's a second rifle in
04 the car, the .22. That gun had gotten out at Popple
05 Dungeon Road, shot a couple shots at the tree. I didn't
06 know how many, if there was more shots in it, or if there
07 wasn't, was it loaded, was it not. I don't know. But
08 Kyle was on this side right toward the back, that corner,
09 like this. He wasn't never, kept, always keeps his eyes
10 on Vinny. And the passenger side, the door was open,
11 passenger door was open, driver's door was closed. So --
12 Q. So Kyle is on the driver's side but back by the
14 A. Yep, yep, back right here. Keeping his eyes on
15 Vinny when Vinny is right up here.
16 Q. Is he keeping his eyes on Vinny through the rifle
17 sights; is the gun shouldered?
18 A. Yes, he's just like this.
19 Q. Vinny is on the passenger side toward the middle
20 of truck?
21 A. What's that?
22 Q. Toward the middle of the truck?
23 A. He's right at the passenger door.
24 Q. Okay, okay, sorry, keep going.
25 A. So, then it registers to me that there's rifle in
01 the car, like I told you guys before, it was in the back
02 seat, but angled forward, so you can barely see it,
03 stock, if you were to look at doors open, if you were to
04 look over, you could see that butt end of the stock
05 sticking up, so my fear was at that point in time, maybe
06 still some shells in it, you know, maybe he, I knew this
07 guy was crazy, I knew like, what he was doing with a
08 splitting maul, I knew he had bad intentions, I knew it
09 wasn't good. My worst fear was him getting that gun, the
10 second gun, pulling the trigger back, having it be some
11 shots in it, and then, you know, there's families around,
12 I was scared for everybody, you know, not only for Kyle.
13 That was my first initial thought, was he's going to get
14 the gun, maybe load it, maybe it will be in there, maybe
15 he'll shoot my brother, you know, that was my thought,
16 that was what partly registered in my head, you know. I
17 went over back here. I wanted to stay out of this whole
18 thing, but at that point in time, like I said, registered
19 to me, so I then decided I would go get this rifle out of
20 the situation, because I knew it was in there. So I came
21 running up like this. Vinny had his eyes on Kyle. He
22 never saw me coming running up to the car, so I got right
23 up to the truck, opened the driver's door, reached in to
24 grab the gun. As I grabbed it, Vinny looks over at me,
25 sees me. I grab the gun out as quickly as I can, take a
01 couple of steps back, you know, retreating this way. As
02 I take a couple steps back, I see Vinny starting to come
03 around the front of the truck.
04 Q. So you're retreating up the driver's side front of
05 the truck?
06 A. Right. I come just like this, grab it, and then I
07 took a couple steps back in the same path that I came
09 Q. Okay. So, and at that point are you backpedaling,
10 are you facing --
11 A. I was taking a couple steps back as he started
12 coming around the front of vehicle. I, knew realized he
13 was coming at me, and I really, you know, I realized he
14 was pretty fast to begin with when he was running, so I
15 knew he wasn't slow kid, so as I got there, I turned
16 16 around and run as fast as I can, probably twenty, twenty-
17 five feet up like this. Turned back around to see him
18 coming at me. So that's when I pulled back the pin, took
19 off, I pulled back the pin, and I realized was a shell in
20 there, took it off safety. I shot once right before my
21 feet like right directly in front of my feet. That
22 didn't stop him at all. He just kept coming, kept
23 coming. So I raised the rifle up a little bit more. I
24 didn't point it at him at all, I just raised it up, and
25 shot again, and I saw the dirt kick up. I shot two to
01 three feet before his feet, you know, just to try and get
02 him to stop, you know. He's coming at me, I shoot just
03 to try to get him to stop coming at me. I just wanted to
04 get the rifle, the other rifle out of that situation, and
05 that was it. But then once he started coming at me,
06 turned back around, saw him coming. I shot once. That
07 didn't nothing. I raised it up, shot once right before
08 him another time, right before his feet. He briefly
09 stopped, and then I turned back around and ran as fast as
10 I could up to the green truck, which is --
11 Q. So when you're firing those two shots that are,
12 generally speaking, first into the ground and second
13 towards Vinny into the ground --
14 A. Yep.
15 Q. -- what general direction is that, that fire; I
16 mean, aside from down?
17 A. It's this way.
18 Q. So toward the F350?
19 A. He comes around like this, and I shoot once,
20 twice. He probably made about this far, and I shot, like
21 I said, once, twice, and I briefly stopped. And I
22 didn't, wasn't, like, waiting there so see, are you going
23 to stop, keep coming? I turned back around toward the
24 green truck, ran back towards the green truck. As I'm
25 running back towards the green truck, I got almost to the
01 green truck, I saw -- let me go back. As I turned around
02 that second time, I see out of the corner of my eye my
03 brother start pushing around this way. Because he saw
04 Vinny coming toward me, obviously my brother loves me,
05 you know, we're close, so we do anything for each other.
06 Q. He's moving up the driver's side moving towards
07 the front driver's side?
08 A. Yes.
09 Q. And Vinny is still, he is still kind of above the
11 A. He's right here.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I see Kyle, the corner of my eye, moving around a
14 little bit. Then I turn, like I said, I turn, and I ran
15 back towards the green truck. As I got almost to the
16 green truck, that's when I heard the second shot, so I
17 never saw the first or second shot, I just heard the
18 second shot. That's when I put the rifle into bed of
19 green truck.
20 Q. After you hear the second shot, do you turn around
21 at all?
22 A. I turned around, but I can't see anything.
23 Q. Because of what?
24 A. Because of this vehicle here. And like I said, I
25 moved all the way around like this, this part of the
01 vehicle. I couldn't see nothing. This was because the
02 green truck, this truck, there's a table underneath the
03 tent. They have like four kegs there that day, from the
04 softball games. They are drinking all day. But anyway,
05 there was obstructions, I couldn't see nothing. When I
06 turned around, I couldn't see nothing, but like I said, I
07 heard a second shot, turned around, couldn't see much, so
08 I moved, I put the gun in the truck. I moved right
09 around to here, right through this alleyway, then I could
10 see right through this alleyway right here in between all
11 these cars. I saw Vinny on the ground, I saw him go
12 down, just like he had just went down. I didn't see him
13 go down. He was like, went like that, he just barely
14 fallen. I saw Tim Arbuckle coming running up, kick him
15 in the face.
16 JUROR: When you saw him fall --
17 THE WITNESS: I didn't see him fall. I
18 saw him on the ground.
19 JUROR: When you noticed him on the
20 ground, did you notice what happened to the axe at that
22 THE WITNESS: He never dropped the axe the
23 entire time. Never. Never put the axe down. Never. He
24 was, in fact, when medical people came over to him, the
25 axe was right next to him. Right next to him. Every-
01 thing is right there. He had a knife in his pocket, and
02 Tazer, Tazer, he gave that to Julie, but he never dropped
03 the axe.
04 JUROR: Was he engaging conversation,
05 screaming, hollering, at you?
06 THE WITNESS: He wasn't saying nothing.
07 He had the axe cocked, and he was coming. I wasn't about
08 to find out, you know, what, you know -- the detective
09 asked me, do you think that he was coming to scare you
10 guys? Or do you think that he was coming to do bodily
11 harm? And I said, you know, I really hundred percent
12 feel he was going to really hit, he wanted to hit one of
13 us with that to prove a point. What it was, I don't
14 know. We didn't even know him. But he was coming to hit
15 one of us with that. And, you know, I wasn't about to
16 let him hit me with it, so that's why I just was trying
17 to get him to, defer him away from me by shooting the,
18 those two shots into the ground simply to stop him from
19 coming towards me because He was running at me with the
20 axe, and, you know --
21 MR. CAHILL: Why don't you actually go
22 back to the witness stand, since we maxed out the chart
24 JUROR: Kind of. So when you fired at
25 Vinny or axe man's feet, you're back by that green truck.
01 THE WITNESS: The first time?
02 JUROR: Yeah, the first time since you
04 THE WITNESS: I wasn't all the way back
05 that far no, no.
06 JUROR: Then he keeps coming toward you.
07 THE WITNESS: See --
08 MR. CAHILL: Why don't you point.
09 THE WITNESS: I stopped here first time
10 and turned around. That's when he was coming at me like
11 this. I shot twice. Then I turned back around and ran
12 to the green truck.
13 JUROR: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: When I'm in route to the
15 truck, almost at the truck, I hear a second shot. I
16 turned around, I can See my brother barely, like I think
17 right here. I don't know, I don't know how. That's a
18 car, that's a car. You see the head but -- couldn't,
19 like really, but I can't see Vinny, so I loop around
20 here. Like through the fence. To here.
21 JUROR: Somehow Vinny gets from up by the
22 wheel of that second vehicle where he's threatening you,
23 he gets all the way back to the passenger side?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, like I said, as I
25 started coming around the front of the truck, that's when
01 I ran back and turned back around. I saw him coming. I
02 don't remember this vehicle right here, to tell the
03 truth, I don't remember, like this. It doesn't seem to
04 scale, this whole drawing doesn't seem to scale.
05 MR. SAND: Excuse me for a second.
06 BY MR. CAHILL:
07 Q. When you turned around and you see Vinny on the
08 ground after shot number two, where's Vinny laying?
09 A. He's laying toward the back of Kyle's truck.
10 Q. Okay. So he's laying somewhere back in there?
11 A. Yeah, maybe, probably say a little forward more
12 than that.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Yeah, like right there. Yep.
15 Q. So toward the rear of the vehicle, I understand
16 could have been between it and Gib's car?
17 A. Yeah, yeah.
18 Q. Now, when you look over, you see Vinny laying down
19 there. Where's Kyle?
20 A. That's the thing, he went down. I saw Tim coming
21 running up through the middle of the two cars. I have no
22 idea why he got involved at this point in time or what
23 the hell was his thinking. I just saw him coming up,
24 boot him in the face really hard. Like I said, I could
25 see, I couldn't, I could see two people, up near there,
01 one of them, which is probably Kyle, but I couldn't see
02 through Gib's car, what Kyle was doing. You know what I
03 mean. It was unclear because Vinny was kind of more
04 towards Gib's car than towards Kyle's truck, so, you
05 know, Vinny and the car, and I saw Tim coming running up
06 and kick him. I saw another individual right behind
07 Gib's car, which was Kyle, I didn't see him do anything,
08 or, you know, but he may have, I'm not sure. I just saw
09 Tim. Then I turned back around, everybody was frantic at
10 this point in time. But I couldn't physically see Kyle
11 do anything. Not saying. I just didn't see from that
12 point in time.
13 JUROR: Once, once you were observing,
14 after Vinny was down, did you see anyone come to
16 THE WITNESS: No one, I just, people were,
17 I saw couple people dialing 911. Nobody was going near
18 him, nobody came near him, you know. I mean, like
19 for the most part the only people that could really had a
20 good vantage point, you know, was myself, and I felt
21 Jerry and Gib, I mean, for the most part, everybody else
22 was hidden behind this tent, you know, they were all,
23 because there's a fence that runs parallel to that tent
24 behind it, and everybody was sitting, they were all,
25 everybody was hanging out in the tent and behind by that
01 chain-link fence. Like I said, there's vehicles in the
02 way, there's, you know, kegs, there's tables, so, I'm not
03 sure what they saw but --
04 JUROR: Could you describe the two
05 weapons, what working condition they were in?
06 THE WITNESS: Both weapons, you mean the
08 JUROR: Right.
09 THE WITNESS: They were both in very good
10 condition. Both work and operate very well. But if
11 that's not your question -- I'm really not sure what
12 exactly you're asking me.
13 BY MR. CAHILL:
14 Q. Just to be clear, the .22 belonged to Kyle, and
15 the 30-06 belonged to you?
16 A. Yep.
17 Q. How long had you had the 30-06?
18 A. My dad, actually that was my first rifle. My dad
19 bought that for me. He worked at Fellows, and one of the
20 ladies bought it for her husband, and he could no longer
21 have guns, so we got that for real cheap, probably when I
22 was fourteen years old, so we're looking like eight years
23 ago, you know.
24 Q. I'm assuming it has some sentimental value to you?
25 A. That and I just bought, I have a .270 which, which
01 is, I hunt with now. I boughten that last Christmas
02 so --
03 Q. Now, the 30-06, you were going to loan it to
04 Tristan for a short period of time; right?
05 A. Just that night. I was just going to, like he
06 said, he said I think he's going to come back tonight, I
07 think he's going to have a gun, he already showed up at
08 my house with Tazers and --
09 JUROR: Other than normal wear and tear,
10 the weapons were in good shape?
11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure
12 exactly his .22, that's his rifle. I know my 30-06 was
13 in great condition.
14 JUROR: Thank you.
15 MR. CAHILL: I was going to say so at the
16 time that, I mean, I'm sure you took a look at it before
17 you were thinking of giving to Tristan, any, I mean no
18 major breaks in it or anything like that before you
19 gave --
20 THE WITNESS: No, no, not at all.
21 MR. CAHILL: All right.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 JUROR: I see. After your brother shot
24 Vinny, he said -- did you notice at any point after that
25 happened, did he have the gun, did he put it back in the
01 car, did he throw it, did he, did you --
02 THE WITNESS: See, this is the thing,
03 that's the thing, after, after the shots had happened, it
04 was just complete and total commotion. People were, some
05 people started leaping at this point in time from behind
06 the tent. You know, people were -- my brother was just,
07 I remember looking for Kyle after, and I couldn't find
08 him. Not sure, I wasn't sure where he was. And then all
09 of a sudden he was over by the tent, and he showed up
10 over by the tent, and he was extremely distraught. You
11 know, he didn't know what to do. He said I think we
12 should get out of here, and I said no, no, we should not.
13 He didn't know what to do. You could see he was just
14 completely and totally out of it.
15 JUROR: You don't know what happened to
16 the gun after he shot him?
17 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what happened
18 to the 30-06.
19 JUROR: You don't know if he put it back
20 in the car or threw it?
21 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I put that
22 .22 in the green truck. I'm not sure if, what happened
23 to that. After, I have no idea. I just reconvened with
24 Kyle by the tent after the whole thing had happened, and
25 there was no guns. I think probably put it back in his
02 JUROR: Did your brother talk to anybody
03 after he, after the shooting?
04 THE WITNESS: I just remember him saying
05 self-defense, it was self-defense, he was coming at me.
06 That was all I could, like I said, I was originally
07 looking for him, I could hear, I could hear his voice
08 saying self-defense, but I was looking, people were
09 everywhere, and I, he wasn't specifically talking to
10 nobody, no. He came looking for me. Obviously I'm the
11 closes person he has there, and he was like, you know,
12 should, let's get out of the here. I said no, we need to
13 stay here. He said, you're right. I hugged him, and he
14 sat down and waited.
15 JUROR: Do you mind if we -- wanted to
16 clarify something for myself. When Vinny was hitting the
17 door, and your brother went around, what you think -- you
18 weren't sure -- was he continuing to hit the door while
19 your brother was getting the rifle?
20 THE WITNESS: Yep, he hit, he hit it.
21 JUROR: So kept on hitting the door?
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, and Kyle's dog was
23 inside, flipping out, barking.
24 JUROR: But when he went around, he didn't
25 pursue him then?
01 THE WITNESS: He, I didn't see Kyle go
02 around the truck. I saw Kyle get the gun out, and I saw
03 Vinny was still on my side, if that's your question. He
04 was still on my side after he hit once near Kyle and hit
05 a second time, then I looked away. Kyle, Kyle and Vinny
06 were real close. Then I looked away. When I looked
07 back, Kyle was on the other side, but Vinny had hit one
08 or two more times. I'm not sure if the entire time he
09 was hitting or what was going on, but when I turned
10 around, Vinny was near the front of the truck, front left
11 side, and Kyle was on the opposite side. And obviously
12 from that point of time when looped around, Vinny had
13 obviously came around one way or the other towards Kyle,
14 because I remember hearing Kyle say, get back, get back.
15 I remember him saying that, vividly, get back, get back,
16 and obviously he didn't --
17 JUROR: Corey, I have two questions for
18 you. Why, when Vinny was coming toward you, why two
20 THE WITNESS: Because --
21 JUROR: Why not more or why not less?
22 THE WITNESS: Because the first shot I
23 shot right in front of myself and, you know, I was just
24 trying to defer him. I was trying to get him to stop
25 coming towards me. When I shot right before myself,
01 obviously that was just a pointless maneuver. He didn't
02 stop, didn't faze him. And keeping in mind this is after
03 the first shot, which he had been shot in the leg. And
04 he never dropped the axe, he's running at me full speed
05 still after having this wound in his leg. He's still
06 coming at me full spied. The first shot, like I said, I
07 shot directly in front of myself on that, didn't, that
08 definitely did not, he didn't stop, he just kept coming.
09 So I raised up a little more and shot again, and just
10 like I said, just trying to get him to stop coming
11 towards me, because he was running towards me full speed.
12 JUROR: Did you consider a third shot?
13 THE WITNESS: No, I just, like I said,
14 after I saw him briefly stopped, I immediately turned
15 around and ran back to the green truck. I was just
16 trying to get out of the situation, and get the rifle
17 that I, that I was just trying to get that rifle out of
18 the situation. I was, the only reasonable I got involved
19 with the whole thing. Otherwise I would have been in the
20 back by the tent scared with everybody else. You know, I
21 would have never even gotten involved because it was
22 scary situation. But like I said, I feared for the life
23 of my brother, and I feared that if he got the gun, I
24 don't know how many shots are in it, but things get
25 really bad at that point in time. This guy's crazed with
01 a weapon.
02 JUROR: Second question for you, could you
03 tell me again, when did you put the gun in the back of
04 the green truck? Was it before or after your, the second
05 shot from the --
06 THE WITNESS: Thirty-ought-six?
07 JUROR: Yeah.
08 THE WITNESS: I heard the second shot, and
09 I turned around, and I put the gun right in the truck.
10 It was right then, after I shot my second shot, I turned
11 around, ran back to the truck. As I was running back to
12 the truck, that's when Kyle's second shot happened, and
13 then I put the rifle in the truck at this point in time,
14 obviously, because Vinny was no longer coming at me, you
15 know, otherwise I wouldn't have dropped it if he was
16 still coming at me, I would have still had the gun and
17 been wielding it. I didn't because he was no longer a
18 threat to me at this point in time.
19 JUROR: Corey --
20 THE WITNESS: She was first, I believe.
21 Trying to be polite.
22 JUROR: Did, were you aware that Vinny had
23 been injured with the first shot?
24 THE WITNESS: I, I, I honestly, I thought
25 that the first shot by my brother, I said this in my
01 testimony, I thought the first shot was, my brother had
02 shot into the ground to, because I remember Kyle saying,
03 get back, get back, get back. Then I heard the shot, and
04 I thought it was just him shooting into the ground.
05 Didn't see it, I didn't know one way or the other, but
06 the reason why I thought that he had shot in the ground
07 because how, well, after, when I said I looked over, I
08 saw Vinny go like this, how well he was moving, you know,
09 and a 30-06 with a hundred eighty grain, a hundred fifty
10 grain bullet through his leg to most people is going to
11 put you back or maybe you drop the axe, make you stop
12 aggressing. You know, and clearly when I came running up
13 and grabbed that second gun, he didn't see me until I
14 grabbed it, when he looked over at me, as soon as I
15 grabbed it, I took a couple steps back, he started coming
16 around at me, full speed, you know, and I turned and ran,
17 turned back around. He was running at me full speed. He
18 had been shot in the leg already, and I honestly didn't
19 know he was shot because how well he was moving. It
20 wasn't till later that after this whole thing that I
21 learned that he had been shot the first time, you know.
22 BY MR. CAHILL:
23 Q. Just want to clarify a couple quick things that
24 have been coming up when you talked a bunch of times
25 about your original testimony, that's your statement to
01 the police?
02 A. Right.
03 Q. Right after this happened?
04 A. Right.
05 Q. Okay. And when you went and put the .22 down by
06 the green truck --
07 A. In the green truck.
08 Q. -- in the green truck, at that point did you know
09 whether the .22 was out of bullets?
10 A. I didn't know.
11 Q. Okay. Is at this point you don't know whether
12 it's loaded or not?
13 A. Right. I don't. But like he said, he is no
14 longer in sight coming towards me. My brother had
15 pushed, and that second shot had happened, so he wasn't,
16 it was like he was continuing to come into me. If that
17 was the case, I would have continued to grab the rifle
18 and get it out of situation. But to me, the situation,
19 he wasn't coming at me anymore, or anything like that,
20 so, you know, situation was pretty much over at this
21 point in time.
22 JUROR: You hadn't seen him on the ground
24 THE WITNESS: I hadn't seen him on the
25 ground yet, but I just, I just dropped it, you know.
01 JUROR: So conceivably your brother could
02 have missed or could have been another warning shot
03 because you don't know if he's been hit yet?
04 THE WITNESS: Right, I don't know if he's
05 been hit yet. I just was scared. I ran back. I wasn't,
06 tell you the truth, when you're in that situation, it's
07 like you're not thinking as clearly as you'd like to be,
08 you know, you just kind of trying to, like I said, I was
09 just trying to do what was best at this point in time,
10 which was, you know, at this point in time I thought just
11 getting the rifle out of the situation would be the best
12 thing to do. When I did, he started coming at me, and I
13 just shot a couple shots, which that did, it stopped him
14 briefly, I turned and run the hell out of there. I was
15 just trying to get out of the situation.
16 JUROR: Just to back up just a touch, when
17 you went in the Jiffy Mart, Kyle talked to Mike Gleason;
19 THE WITNESS: Um.
20 JUROR: Did you, you had indicated that
21 Vinny had stopped, gone to the house and threatened Gib;
22 is that correct? Is that the conversation?
23 THE WITNESS: That's what I was told, is
24 that, you know, think about it, when we originally
25 called, Jerry originally called Gib and said, I mean
01 Jerry originally called Vinny, he said fifteen minutes,
02 and Vinny had, remember I said he had already been to the
03 ball field once, so he came down there once. We weren't
04 there, obviously, because we were out, you know, on back
05 roads the other direction. Then he was driving around
06 Chester looking for somebody. That's when he went to
07 Mike Gleason's house, was then.
08 JUROR: Did he actually go in Mike's
10 THE WITNESS: I have no idea whether he
11 actually went in, I'm not sure.
12 JUROR: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: I wasn't there, so kind of
14 just can't speculate to say when I don't know. But Mike
15 said he was scared, Gib said that he had said I'm going
16 to F-ing kill you and your family, rape your mom, or
17 something along those lines. But I'm not exactly sure.
18 JUROR: Moving forward, Vinny gets out of
19 the car, grabs the maul, starts running at people.
20 THE WITNESS: He didn't just get out of
21 the car and started doing that. Like I said, he was out
22 of the car, he was talking to, saying I could take on all
23 of you, look how many of you.
24 JUROR: And he starts running, you said
25 full strength?
01 THE WITNESS: Yes.
02 JUROR: Does he stop?
03 THE WITNESS: Doesn't stop. Ninety-degree
04 fence line, he arcs around the fence line and keeps
06 JUROR: Swinging at people?
07 THE WITNESS: No, nobody was close enough
08 then, but obviously I had heard some speculation that
09 he had stopped and said to Jordan, I could F-ing kill you
10 right now, you F-ing C word to her, which I didn't see
11 that, either, but that was what was said. I remember
12 because Jerry had indicated that he threw a beer bottle
13 at Vinny when he stopped.
14 JUROR: That's, back up to what you know.
15 THE WITNESS: Right, right, right.
16 JUROR: That's because that's the most
17 important thing right now, so based upon what you know,
18 he starts running full strength after you guys, he
19 doesn't stop to swing, doesn't stop to talk, or yell at
20 anybody, he's running full strength right at you?
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 JUROR: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: The, the only person he
24 really got close enough was Jordan at that, Jordan,
25 Jordan she thinks she's invincible, she thinks she's a
01 girl, nobody's going to hit her, which nobody would, but
02 this guy was crazy, none of us wanted to get that close
03 to find out whether he was going to hit us with it or
04 not. We were all fleeing back, and he was coming at us.
05 We are all just receding back as far as we could. That's
06 what I think that this whole thing really does come down
07 to, too, we were receding as far as we could until our
08 backs were against the wall.
09 JUROR: So you're fleeing as fast as you
10 can; he's chasing you as fast --
11 THE WITNESS: Right, and he was fast, he's
13 JUROR: You mentioned he's actually
14 closing the gap.
15 THE WITNESS: Right.
16 JUROR: So the thought of, for him to
17 stop, you know, seems, okay.
18 THE WITNESS: Right. And to me it was
19 more my brother trying to get into the vehicle for his
20 own safety other than, you know, trying to unlock THE
21 door so he can pull out a weapon. It wasn't like that.
22 He knew that Vinny was gaining on him, and then Vinny was
23 right there. It became him or Vinny, you know.
24 JUROR: Right.
25 BY MR. CAHILL:
01 Q. I have follow-up question on the issue of running
02 away. We're at the point where shot number one and 30-06
03 has been fired. You are, you have the .22 in your hand.
04 You're backpedaling. You fire into the ground, you fire
05 again into the ground, but further ahead, Vinny is
06 essentially occupied by you at this point in time?
07 A. Yeah, he was coming after me.
08 Q. What prevents Kyle from using that time to run
10 A. Using that time to run away. My brother, if he
11 ever saw anybody coming at me, would not go the other
12 way. He would try to protect me. Me and him are
13 unbelievably close. That's why I'd do the same for him.
14 I'll do the same for him. Out of corner of my eye I saw
15 Kyle pushing around, coming around towards me, like I
16 just saw out of the corner of my eye, I knew where Kyle
17 was. I saw him around corner.
18 Q. So Kyle's coming around to protect you?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. At some point Vinny becomes disinterested in you?
21 A. I don't know. Like I said, I shot that second
22 shot. He briefly stopped, just briefly stopped. I
23 wasn't waiting there like that. I turned around right
24 after that. I saw him stop, turn around. And like I
25 said, I was trying to get the gun and get out of the
01 situation, as far as back as I could, as far away. That
02 is then when he started coming around at me, coming at
03 me. It was my problem then, what to do, what am I
04 supposed to do? You know.
05 Q. I think you have a question back there?
06 JUROR: From the first shot that you heard
07 to the second shot that you heard, but didn't see, how
08 many times did you get, elapsed between?
09 THE WITNESS: Like I say, with all the
10 emotions, I'm not going to try to guess at time.
11 JUROR: Seconds, minutes?
12 THE WITNESS: Between his first and second
13 shot, not very long, obviously, because the first shot
14 had happened, I looked over, saw Vinny getting around,
15 didn't take me but twenty seconds to loop around by that
16 green truck, and it hit me right off I got to get this
17 weapon. I went running up, grabbed the gun. I came
18 around, and from the time of when I shot my two shots, I
19 finished my second shot, it wasn't a couple of seconds
20 before Kyle's second shot, you know, it was, Kyle was
21 right on top of it, that he was coming after me,
22 obviously, that was, I mean Kyle would rather protect me
23 over his own self but you know --
24 JUROR: When you said you saw him
25 crouching and threatening your brother, is it possible
01 that he was, was hurt from his leg, that's why he was
02 down like that?
03 THE WITNESS: No, not at all. You could
04 tell he was making long strides with his legs, getting
05 down, you could see that he was wielding the axe, if that
06 was the case, why still wield the axe, why wield the axe,
07 why, you could see it was clearly a tactical thing for
08 just trying to get out of Kyle's path of vision. You
09 know what I mean, if Kyle's on one side, I can't see him,
10 Vinny comes around, then he pops up, he gets him, that
11 was to me how it seemed, was that he was, he was
12 definitely not going down, he was definitely not hurt at
13 all or stunned by that first shot because he was clearly
14 running at me. And I don't even know how it's possible
15 for somebody, you know, with a 30-06 wound in the leg to
16 run like that. I don't but --
17 JUROR: Once Vinny's on the ground from
18 the second shot, the one that you didn't see or the other
19 one you didn't see, I know you didn't see what happened
20 immediately after other than Tim Arbuckle rushing up and
21 kicking him, but did you later learn from Kyle or anybody
22 else whether Kyle had to do anything to make sure that
23 Vinny was staying on the ground?
24 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. I didn't
25 see, like I said, I barely saw another individual. I
01 didn't see whether it was Kyle. I just saw that second
02 individual offset to Gib's car, and then I didn't really
03 sit there and watch. I turned back around. I walked
04 back to the tent, like I said, I didn't see anything else
05 from that point in time, you know.
06 JUROR: So you I mean -- there's been no
07 talk between you and your brother what happened after
08 Vinny went down.
09 THE WITNESS: No.
10 Yes, sir.
11 JUROR: When Vinny came after you when you
12 took the .22 out --
13 THE WITNESS: Um.
14 JUROR: Did you load the gun, or was the
15 gun already loaded?
16 THE WITNESS: I mentioned I pulled back
17 the pin so there was, there was still obviously bullets
18 in the rifle.
19 JUROR: So the gun --
20 THE WITNESS: No, not loaded. There's a
21 difference between having a gun Loaded and having shells
22 in the gun. You know.
23 JUROR: Actually the clarification, if I,
24 I understand it, a loaded gun is a magazine is in the
01 THE WITNESS: Um-hum, okay.
02 JUROR: That's a loaded gun?
03 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. But I, like I
04 said, I didn't know whether that gun was or was not
05 loaded. It wasn't, I didn't know, I knew that Kyle had
06 used it earlier to shot a couple times, I didn't know
07 whether it was or was not loaded. I feared that it was
08 loaded and that he would get it. That's my fear. When I
09 got the weapon, like I said, I pulled back the pins, saw
10 one going in the chamber, and took it off safety as he
11 was coming at me but --
12 JUROR: When you shot the warning shots
13 towards the axe man, what direction was the tent; was the
14 tent to your back at this point?
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, the tent was to my
16 back. I turned back around towards the, away from
18 JUROR: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't have, I mean, my
20 dad's always taught us you never, never point a gun
21 towards anybody, always keep it towards the ground, you
22 don't keep it loaded. He tried to, you know, teach us
23 all the right ways but --
24 JUROR: Corey, your intention, weapons
25 aside, no axe, no guns, you guys versus Vinny, was it
01 your intention, you think it was Tim's or Kyle's
02 intention to go up and physically have a confrontation
03 with Vinny?
04 THE WITNESS: Not at all. Not at all,
05 because we had had the conversation, we had, all we
06 wanted to do is just talk to him, we just want to talk
07 to him and try and ask him why are you coming at our
08 friends, look how many of us there are down here at this
09 place, a public place, that's why we went down to the
10 ball field in the first place, was because we thought it
11 was going to be protected area where this crazy guy, we
12 didn't know much about him other than he was crazy, we
13 didn't think he would do a lot at a public place like
14 that. We were going to try to talk to him. We put the
15 vehicle way away, he parked way away, so we can just,
16 closing the distance to be able to talk and that was it.
17 You know. There was never anything from me or Kyle or
18 Jerry that indicated any physical, you know, but Tim had
19 said, you know, I'll shove that Tazer up your butt, and
20 that was the only thing that was said.
21 JUROR: You think Tim felt like more the
22 aggressor, aggressive one, that he was going to get
23 straightened out, or did you all feel that you really
24 needed --
25 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what Tim felt.
01 JUROR: By his actions, did it seem like
02 he wanted to go beat the crap out of him, or, I mean,
03 like what --
04 THE WITNESS: I honestly don't know. I
05 honestly know our intentions were we just wanted to talk
06 to him. Tim wasn't with us the rest of the day. I don't
07 know what was in Tim's mind. I didn't talk to him, Tim,
08 about that. We had been in the truck. I know what we
09 had said. We are just going to talk to him. We don't
10 want --
11 JUROR: Did you really think he was going
12 to talk after all that swearing and threatening, he was
13 going to kill your family?
14 THE WITNESS: We didn't know what to do,
15 ma'am, honestly. We were just trying to help our friend
16 out, talk to him, look how many of us we are down here,
17 we all have his back, we all want you to cut the crap,
18 stop coming after our friends. That was the only thing.
19 Whether it was a good idea, can't change what happened,
20 you know, what you can do is say that was our intentions,
21 we just wanted to talk to him. Things got out of hand,
22 obviously, because of what happened, but, you know, we
23 just wanted to talk, and there was no talking, when he
24 grabbed the maul and started running towards us, you
01 JUROR: You think that he ever felt
02 threatened seeing all the people kind of walking towards
04 THE WITNESS: There was only three or four
05 of us that walked up.
06 JUROR: Okay, but still, three or four
07 guys, You think that he felt like he needed to then
08 protect Julie and Kirby, or you don't know?
09 THE WITNESS: I don't, I don't, I
10 definitely don't think he felt that way. He didn't
11 have -- HE had the option at that point in time, he could
12 have just talked with us, said I don't like this guy
13 because of this or I have a beef with him because of
14 this. It wasn't like that he was zapping the Tazer and
15 completely put the Tazer away and grabbed the axe and
16 made his move, you know, it wasn't, was no clear logical
17 thinking, didn't see like from him -- if that was me in
18 that position, I would have never, never, never, ever,
19 ever, ever done that type of stuff. I wouldn't ever come
20 at somebody with an axe. If somebody told me to come
21 back with an axe, and I was coming after you, I would
22 have dropped it. What possesses somebody, something,
23 somebody has a weapon drawn on you, you're going to try
24 to hit them, someone has a gun, tells you to get back,
25 you keep on going like they are not even there, not
01 fazed, doesn't seem like a normal, rational human being
02 to me.
03 JUROR: You, knowing that he was crazy,
04 pretty much, what, you talked to him, heard him --
05 THE WITNESS: I haven't ever talked to him
06 or seen him.
07 JUROR: You were there when the conversa-
08 tion was, when they called him, they were yelling on the
09 phone, you said you heard him?
10 THE WITNESS: He had arguments, Jerry and
12 JUROR: Right, right.
13 THE WITNESS: I heard --
14 JUROR: You heard him, it got worse and
15 worse and worse, you guys knew he was pretty hyped up.
16 Now you're probably, oh, probably, how do I want to say,
17 you follow the law pretty good in, you're deer hunter,
18 whatever, wouldn't you want to go to the police officers
19 and say something, our, the state police before you went
20 to the ball field?
21 THE WITNESS: I, I honestly was just, I
22 just drove, I wasn't talking with Vinny. I was just a
23 witness in this whole thing, pretty much. Maybe Tristan
24 should have went to the state police. We had no involve-
25 ment with it, the events that happened the day before and
01 everything else, probably should have, he probably
02 shouldn't have been locked up. But, you know, I didn't
03 know him, I didn't know his actions, how crazy he was.
04 Tristan was explaining it to me, but like I said, from
05 around here, you don't really think that somebody's going
06 to be that crazy, that's going to really do that. You
07 don't think that. You just don't, because from around
08 here, people get in fistfights, that's one thing, but
09 this stuff doesn't happen, you know, these things do not
10 happen. We just thought if we got enough of us down
11 there, you know, to talk with him, that maybe he
12 rationalize and say, you know, this is what I'm doing,
13 you know, I need to stop. But that wasn't how it came,
14 you know, that was our intentions, like I said, we can't
15 change what happened, our intentions were just to talk
16 to him. That's, that's all I can say.
17 MR. CAHILL: Okay. That is all. Thank
18 you very much.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 JUROR: Thank you so much.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you guys very much,