STATE OF VERMONT
                     WINDSOR COUNTY, SS.

 6                             ) Windsor District Court

 7                             )  

 8                             ) Docket No.: 972-8-08 WrCr

 9                             )  

10                             )  
    KYLE BOLASKI,               )  

11                             ) Digital Recording  
        Defendant.              )  

12                             )





    Statement of Corey Bolaski as recorded on August   

    17 and 18, 2008.  




    Detective Trooper Daniel Trudeau




 1                     (August 17, 2008)


 3      Q.   Can you just -- is it C-o-r-e-y?

 4      A.   (No audible response)

 5      Q.   And your middle initial?

 6      A.   M.

 7      Q.   M.  And spell the last name for me.

 8      A.   B, as in boy, --

 9      Q.   Yeah.

10      A.   -- o-l-a-s-k-i.

11      Q.   And your date of birth, Corey?

12      A.   8/6/86.

13      Q.   And your address?

14      A.   57 North Street, Chester, Vermont 05143, I believe

15   that's -- I just moved there a little bit ago.  I'm from

16   Springfield.

17      Q.   Okay.  You got a home phone?

18      A.   Yeah.

19      Q.   What's that?

20      A.   802 --

21      Q.   Yeah.

22      A.  -- 875 --

23      Q.   Yup.  

24      A.   -- triple one 2.

25      Q.   1112.  You got a cell phone at all?

 1      A.   No.

 2      Q.   All right.  So that number, if I ever had to call

 3   you to ask about anything else, --

 4      A.   Yeah, that's where I live.  That's my --

 5      Q.   That's where to go?

 6      A.   That's my apartment house phone number, yeah.

 7      Q.   Okay.  It's Dan Trudeau of the state police.  I'm

 8   here with Corey Bolaski.  We're at the barracks.  Corey was

 9   witness or involved in an incident that occurred in Chester.

10   I'm not quite sure what the time was at this point, but, um,

11   I'm going to sit down with Corey here and try to capture

12   what he remembers seeing happened.

13          Because of the custody issue, like I explained

14   earlier, you were held for a little bit at the scene there

15   until we could get some detectives to come in and chat with

16   you and get your statement, okay, because of that, I'm just

17   going to read your Miranda, rights, okay.  You're not under

18   arrest.  You understand that, okay.

19          You have the right to remain silent.  Anything you

20   say can and will be used against you in a court of law.  

21   Have a right to talk to a lawyer before questioning and have

22   a lawyer present with you during questioning.  If you cannot

23   afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent

24   you.

25      A.   Isn't this questioning though?

 1      Q.   What's that?

 2      A.   This isn't questioning or it is questioning?

 3      Q.   Well, yeah, I'm going to can ask you a couple

 4   questions.

 5      A.   All right, yeah.  I just didn't know if I have a --

 6   if they had -- saying do you have a right to have a lawyer

 7   or do you not?

 8      Q.   What do you mean?

 9      A.   Like it says you're allowed to have a lawyer.

10      Q.   Yeah, yeah, no, I'm just explaining.  These are your

11   rights.

12      A.   Yeah.

13      Q.   We're going to talk.  I'll have you just say Corey,

14   just tell me what happened --

15      A.   I'd just like to know -- I'd like to know all about

16   everything, how everything goes.  I don't know.  I've never

17   been in this situation so --

18      Q.   Yeah, no, this is just how we do it so you know

19   what's going on, okay?  

20      A.   Uh-huh.

21      Q.   Because obviously there was some sort of incident

22   there, criminal in nature.

23      A.   Yeah.

24      Q.   And then that with you being a witness to it and you

25   were being detained there for so long, okay, --

 1      A.   Yeah -- so I have to sign that is basically --

 2      Q.   –- that’s why I’m reading these, okay?  Hang on.  

 3   Let me finish reading it.  And I'm going to go back to

 4   number 3 because I don't know if I finished it.

 5      A.   All right.

 6      Q.   You have a right to talk to a lawyer before

 7   questioning, have a lawyer present with you during

 8   questioning.  If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one

 9   will be appointed to represent you at public expense for any

10   questioning if you wish.  In Vermont that's called a public

11   defender.  If you decide to answer questions, you may stop

12   the questioning at any time.  Do you understand each of

13   these rights I've explained to you?

14      A.   I do.  But I don't understand this one.

15      Q.   Which one?

16      A.   This one here.

17      Q.   Number 3?

18      A.   Yeah.  

19      Q.   Let me turn it around.

20      A.   You have a right to talk to a lawyer before

21   questioning.  This is questioning and I haven't talked to a

22   lawyer.

23      Q.   Yeah.  Well, I'm telling you that's your right.

24      A.   So --

25      Q.   I haven't asked you any questions yet.

 1      A.   -- I probably should.

 2      Q.   I haven't asked you any questions yet.

 3      A.   Okay.  Yeah, I know that.  But --

 4      Q.   Well, I mean, you know what --

 5      A.   -- before questioning I have a right.

 6      Q.   Yeah, before.  We haven't got --

 7      A.   We haven't had any, but --

 8      Q.   We haven't had any talk -- we haven't even talked

 9   yet.

10      A.   Yeah, I know, but I can -- I know that, but I can

11   talk to one before I talk to you.

12      Q.   You could.  You could.  But we're here now.  That's

13   why we came here to talk, okay.

14      A.   Yeah.

15      Q.   I mean, it's important to get everybody's side of

16   the story.  

17      A.   I understand that, but --

18      Q.   So like I said, everybody else is talking to the

19   different detectives right now so, you know, so after we're

20   done with this room, we'll probably have people outside

21   waiting to use it so --

22      A.   It just seems like I should be able to talk to a

23   lawyer before I talk to you so that way somebody with some

24   know-how is telling me --

25      Q.   Well, I mean, obviously I can't give you legal

 1   advice.  I'm not a lawyer so --

 2      A.   Exactly.

 3      Q.   Okay.  But I just explained your options.

 4      A.   But this is pretty -- pretty difficult situation

 5   here for me seeing as how I'm only 22 years old, and I

 6   haven't –- I mean, feel like I should be -- I need every --

 7   you know, I feel like I should be able to have a -- if I

 8   need –-  

 9      Q.  Well, like I said, Corey, --

10      A.  -- a question -– if this is a criminal thing, like

11   you're saying, I should be able to have a lawyer.  I'd

12   rather not be here by myself telling you --

13      Q.   Well, from what I understand, you might have only

14   just witnessed something.  So I don't know what you saw.

15      A.   Yeah, I did witness something.

16      Q.   Okay.  

17      A.   But that has nothing to do with it I don't really

18   feel.  I'm trying to be -- I mean, I can give you –-  

19      Q.   Well, do you think that –-

20      A.   I feel like this –- I feel like this is something

21   totally different than what I just gave the other officer

22   down in Chester where I was telling him about just, like,

23   what I saw.  I mean, that was totally different from this

24   about having to talk to a lawyer first and everything else,

25   you know what I'm saying?  Do you understand what I'm

 1   saying?

 2      Q.   Listen, do you think that this doesn't apply to you,

 3   these Miranda rights?

 4      A.   I feel like this is something more significant than

 5   what I just did.

 6      Q.   Because listen, --

 7      A.   And I haven't talked to a lawyer --

 8      Q.   Listen --

 9      A.   -- is all I'm saying.

10      Q.   As far as --

11      A.   This is a significant situation as far as I feel.

12   I'm very --

13      Q.   Well, listen --

14      A.   I feel like I'm going to throw up in my mouth right

15   now.

16      Q.   I don't want you to throw up.  

17      A.   I know.  I know you don't.  But I'm saying that's

18   how I feel right now, do you understand that?

19      Q.   I understand you have some anxiety.

20      A.   It's hard.  It's hard to deal with this situation

21   and not knowing what your rights are and not know what you

22   should, you know, because --

23      Q.   Listen, --

24      A.   -- this is a serious situation, like I'm saying.

25      Q.   Yeah.

 1      A.   Very.

 2      Q.   It is serious.

 3      A.   And I don't know what to do, and I want to make the

 4   right decision.

 5      Q.   Well, I want you to too.  And I think being honest

 6   and explaining what you saw and what you remember is

 7   important.

 8      A.   It is, I definitely think so, but --

 9      Q.   Okay.  And if you don't think -- like I told you,

10   you're not under arrest.  I'm just reading you these because

11   there was some sort of detention period.

12      A.   I know.  All I know –- what I’m saying obviously you

13   don't even know what happened yet.  So it's not like this is

14   -- this is something based on -- you know, I mean, you --

15   after the statement you could say, oh, Mr. Corey Bolaski, we

16   feel like you done this so we're going to arrest you, you

17   know what I mean?

18      Q.   Well, I'm not --

19      A.   I haven't --

20      Q.   Listen, --

21      A.   -- even talked to a lawyer yet.

22      Q.   Listen, --

23      A.   I haven't even talked to a lawyer.

24      Q.   Listen, you're talking too much.  You're talking too

25   much right now, okay.

 1      A.   I'm scared.

 2      Q.   You need to listen a little bit right now, okay?

 3   You're not under arrest, okay?  I'm not the case officer, so

 4   I'm not going to arrest you, okay.  Whatever information you

 5   have, I'm going to write it down, it's going to be recorded

 6   anyway, and I will tell the case officer, you know what,

 7   Corey Bolaski, I had a chat with him.  This is what he saw,

 8   this is what he remembers, these are the details he could

 9   recall, okay, and that's what we're doing.  We're all kind

10   of fact finders.  Everybody's collecting a little

11   information right now, okay?

12      A.   But why do they give you that information you can

13   have a lawyer and talk to a lawyer first?  That must be

14   important, I feel.

15      Q.   Because it's your right.  Everybody, everybody has

16   that right.

17      A.   Well, wouldn't you want to talk to a lawyer before

18   you got yourself involved in a situation?

19      Q.   A lot of people do, a lot of people don't.

20      A.   So I'm starting to feel like I should.

21      Q.   We don't even read these all the time to be honest

22   with you, okay.  In fact, I don't think it really even

23   applies in this -- in this scenario, okay, because you're

24   not under arrest, and that's most of the scenario when this

25   applies.

 1      A.   That's what I don't understand, okay.

 2      Q.   It's because -- it's because of the detention

 3   period, okay.  Sounds like Chester PD or maybe some of the

 4   other troopers, you know, cordoned off that area down there

 5   where there's evidence or whatever happened, and they wanted

 6   you to stay by, okay, so you weren't free just to walk away.

 7      A.   Nobody was.

 8      Q.   Because of that, because of that, that's what

 9   Miranda -- there's two requirements when we have to read

10   Miranda, okay.  You have to be in custody, which you're not,

11   but it's a detention period, okay.  You were detained for

12   questioning, okay.  So are we on a fine line whether I need

13   to read this or not?  Yeah, I don't think I have to, but I'm

14   gonna for your protection and for mine, okay, that way we

15   say afterwards that we covered that, okay?

16      A.   Yeah.  I mean, I just like to tell all you people

17   people trying to give this very (inaudible) opportunity

18   here.

19      Q.   I am.  I absolutely am.

20      A.   I've told every officer the same thing.  It's like  

21   I --

22      Q.   I mean, I don't know who you talked to or anything

23   like that, but I know my boss asked me, Corey Bolaski over

24   here sitting down on that step or whatever it was, --

25      A.   Yeah.

 1      Q.   -- he asked me if I could talk with you and grab

 2   your statement.

 3      A.   All right.

 4      Q.   Does that make sense?

 5      A.   It does.  I just wanted -- I just -- I'm just, you

 6   know, --

 7      Q.   Because I might not get a chance to talk with you

 8   later, okay, and I think you probably have some important

 9   information that may be beneficial to you or may be

10   beneficial to the case officer, I'm not sure, okay.  Maybe

11   you got nothing, I don't know.  But you were there, and this

12   is my assignment.

13      A.   All right.

14      Q.   Got it?

15      A.   Yeah.

16      Q.   Are you with me?

17      A.   Uh-huh.

18      Q.   Any other questions?

19      A.   I guess not other than I feel like I'm fucking

20   myself over but --

21      Q.   Well, do you understand these are the rights I've

22   explained to you?

23      A.   Uh-huh.

24      Q.   Do you wish to speak to me now?  Was this a --

25   number 6, do you understand these are the rights I've

 1   explained to you, was that a yes or a no?

 2      A.   Yeah.  Yes.

 3      Q.   Do you wish to speak to me now?

 4      A.   No, I mean -- speak to you, what do you mean?  Yeah,

 5   I'm going to talk to you.

 6      Q.   We're going to talk, yeah, yeah.  And this is just a

 7   waiver, we call it the Miranda waiver.  I have been advised

 8   I have the right to remain silent, to talk with a lawyer

 9   prior to questioning or have one present during questioning.

10   Knowing my rights, I agree to waive them now -- agree to

11   waive them and talk to you now.  No threats or promises have

12   been made to me, okay.  Do you understand that?

13      A.   Yeah.  This is just I don't -- I just feel like I

14   should talk to somebody first, a lawyer.

15      Q.   Well, you know, I don't know what your involvement

16   was, I really don't.  I don't even know what this whole

17   thing is about?

18      A.   I don't think it's right though, people that aren't

19   involved get in trouble for shit like this.  I've read about

20   it a thousand times, that's why -- I'm not stupid.  And I

21   know that I didn't do anything, yes, but I also know that --

22      Q.   I don't even know if anybody got arrested at the

23   scene.

24      A.   Well, obviously people get in trouble for shit like

25   that.  People go out and just not get in trouble for that.

 1   All I'm saying is I feel like I don't know anything about

 2   the law.  I don't know.

 3      Q.   I don't --

 4      A.   And I think I should be appointed a lawyer too  

 5   now --

 6      Q.   I don't know --

 7      A.   -- for what's going on --  

 8      Q.   Listen, --

 9      A.   -- is all I'm saying, sir.

10      Q.   Listen, look at me.  I don't know about the facts of

11   what happened out there.  You know some of the facts.  So

12   it's important, I believe for you, to say, hey, this is what

13   position I was put in.  This is what happened.  This is what

14   I saw, okay.

15      A.   Uh-huh.

16      Q.   Make sense?  Can you just date and time for me.

17      A.   8/17.

18      Q.   August 17, yeah.  And it's 11:38 -- or, I'm sorry,

19   10:38.

20          So first off, maybe if you just -- just tell me in

21   general what happened out there, Corey.

22      A.   In general would you like to know what was going on

23   the day before or no?

24      Q.   Yeah, yeah.  I mean, I don't know how you get

25   involved in all this or how you know --

 1      A.   I don't even know --

 2      Q.   -- all these people.

 3      A.   That's what I'm saying, I don't even know this kid.

 4   I don't even know what -- if I was to see this kid on the

 5   street, I wouldn't even know what he looked -- I have no

 6   idea.

 7      Q.   Okay.

 8      A.   Don't even know.  I don't even know who he is, no

 9   idea.

10      Q.   Which kid are we talking now, just so I --

11      A.   This -- this -- the kid -- the kid -- the kid that

12   was running after us with the frickin' splitting maul.

13      Q.   Okay.

14      A.   Not me.

15      Q.   Do you know his name at all, just so --

16      A.   Yeah, his --

17      Q.   What?

18      A.   -- name is Vinnie or something.

19      Q.   Vinnie?

20      A.   Vincent, Vinnie.

21      Q.   Okay.

22      A.   I don't know anything other than that.

23      Q.   I mean, that's the first I've heard his name, so

24   that's why I'm just asking you.  So when we're talking about

25   this guy, I know which guy you're talking about.  Tell me

 1   about yesterday.

 2      A.   I went to bed early yesterday.  I wasn't involved in

 3   any of this yesterday.  

 4      Q.   What do you know about yesterday?

 5      A.   I know about yesterday is that I'm friends with --

 6   vaguely friends with this kid Tristan Blanchard, and I'm

 7   friends with Gibb, Gibb Bastian.

 8      Q.   Tristan and Gibb, yeah.

 9      A.   Yup.  And yesterday supposedly -- and Ben Millay.

10      Q.   And Ben?

11      A.   Ben Millay.  Ben and Tristan were at Tristan's house

12   in Chester yesterday.

13      Q.   Uh-huh.

14      A.   This kid, Vinnie, shows up at Tristan's house, --

15      Q.   Yup.

16      A.   -- from what I heard.

17      Q.   Who told you this?

18      A.   Tristan told me this.

19      Q.   Tristan, okay.

20      A.   And Gibb told me this.

21      Q.   All three of these guys were there?

22      A.   I didn't talk to Ben.  Yes, all -- well, Gibb wasn't

23   there.  Tristan and Ben were there at this point in time

24   when this kid showed up.

25      Q.   Okay.

 1      A.   This kid, Vinnie.  Vinnie showed up up there.  The

 2   door was unlocked.  He just came upstairs.  He wouldn't --

 3   from what I understand, he wanted to -- oh, because Tristan

 4   and Ben were there, and Ben had been dating this girl or had

 5   messed around, had relations with this girl Julie Kronberg,

 6   okay?

 7      Q.   Julie, got ya.

 8      A.   Julie Kronberg.

 9      Q.   Now, --

10      A.   Vinnie and Julie had just started hanging out

11   recently.

12      Q.   Okay.

13      A.   So Julie said something about Ben Millay saying

14   something that he said, okay.  So he knew that Ben Millay

15   was at Tristan's from his truck.  Ben's truck was at

16   Tristan's.

17      Q.   And Gibb wasn't there yet?

18      A.   Gibb was not there.

19      Q.   Got ya.

20      A.   From what I understand.  But Gibb was dating that

21   other girl Kirby who is in for witnessing right now.  They

22   had just broken up.  They had been together for eight years.

23   They had just broken up.

24      Q.   Uh-huh.

25      A.   Gibb -- and she had been hanging out with this kid

 1   Vinnie too, I guess, from what I had heard.  She had been

 2   hanging out with this kid.  This kid Vinnie is from Boston.

 3   His brother, C.T., was in the Real World or some shit, and

 4   he's a bigger kid.  That's all we know.  He's from Boston

 5   and he's -- his brother's in the real world, C.T., this

 6   Vinnie kid.

 7      Q.   Okay.  Vinnie was -- is --

 8      A.   Vinnie is dating --

 9      Q.   Dating Julie now?

10      A.   Is hanging out with Julie.  And somehow Julie ran

11   her mouth about Ben.  So Vinnie came up trying to fight Ben.  

12   He wanted to take -- he came up into Tristan's house

13   yesterday about four or 5:00 during the day and wanted Ben

14   to go outside in the parking lot with him.

15      Q.   Where does Tristan live?

16      A.   Tristan lives --

17      Q.   In Chester or --

18      A.   Yeah, if you go past the Jiffy Mart and then you go

19   past the hardware store and then there's that next left-hand

20   street right there right before the green, it's that

21   left-hand road, --

22      Q.   I'm not from the area so --

23      A.   Well, you know where the Chester green is?

24      Q.   Yeah, roughly.  

25      A.   It's right before there on the left-hand side.

 1      Q.   Got ya.

 2      A.   So that's where he lives.

 3      Q.   Okay.

 4      A.   And he goes up and he wanted to fight with Ben or

 5   whatever, and both Tristan and Michelle were yelling at him

 6   to leave, just, you know, leave, don't leave the house.  He

 7   wouldn't leave.  He wouldn't leave.  So finally I guess the

 8   kid left after stealing some money off of Tristan's table.

 9   He stole some money and then left.

10      Q.   So Tristan's door was open or unlocked, or --

11      A.   Yeah, it was --

12      Q.   -- did they invite him in or --

13      A.   It was unlocked, but he lives -- like, he lives

14   upstairs and you have to go up –- like, you go into a

15   mudroom and then it goes upstairs to his apartment.  The kid

16   just came up.  Like, he was all of a sudden there in the

17   living room.

18      Q.   Helped himself and just went in?

19      A.   Yeah, just -- and he's a huge kid.

20      Q.   Yeah.

21      A.   Tristan's not and Ben's not, they're not fighters,

22   neither am I.  I mean, the kid is a huge kid.  He's -- from

23   what I understand, he's on Xanax, Prozac.  He's been taking

24   steroids, I guess.  I mean, the kid --

25      Q.   He drove all the way up from Boston or does he --

 1      A.   No, he lives here now and so does C.T.

 2      Q.   Okay.

 3      A.   And he lives here and he's been dating Julie, that's

 4   the thing, --

 5      Q.   Okay.

 6      A.   -- he's been hanging out with Julie.

 7      Q.   Just let me stop you for one second.

 8      A.   But this is an old subject.

 9      Q.   This Ben and Julie, they used to be --

10      A.   That's an older subject.  She's his dink or

11   something.

12      Q.   Okay.

13      A.   I don't know.

14      Q.   Okay.

15      A.   They weren't going out, but there was some --

16      Q.   Okay.

17      A.   -- there was some deal in between those two is all

18   I'm saying.

19      Q.   Okay.

20      A.   And they got him involved.  I don't know how.  But

21   this involved, you know what I mean?  Then he stole money

22   from Tristan.  And so Tristan and Gibb and Ben went and

23   followed him to Springfield, which she went up -- he went up

24   to Summer Street Hill to Julie's house, this is where the

25   incident went down last night, where he punched -- he

 1   started -- Michelle was Tristan's girlfriend, and Jordan,

 2   this younger girl, who's 16, were also there.  Vinnie

 3   started pushing those two girls, and he had -- you know, he

 4   had a knife and he was threatening everybody there, and he

 5   ended up punching Gibb in the face and knocking him out,

 6   knocked Gibb out.

 7      Q.   This is in Springfield though?

 8      A.   Yes.  They followed him to Springfield.

 9      Q.   Okay.  Can we just stop for a sec so I can catch up?

10      A.   Yeah.

11      Q.   Because you're throwing a lot of --

12      A.   I know.  I know.  It's hard --

13      Q.   Throwing a lot of shit at me, man.

14      A.   This is all stuff I heard too.

15      Q.   No, I know, I know.  I just want to -- I just want

16   to -- I just want to try to be on the same --

17      A.   This is very --

18      Q.   -- same plane as you.

19      A.   It's very confusing.  There's two girls and there's

20   two guys.  And the girls -- what I'm saying is they're using

21   this kid and because -- and they're playing him against --

22      Q.   Well, let me tell you what I'm gathering so far and

23   you tell me if I'm wrong, fair enough?

24      A.   Uh-huh.

25      Q.   Ben and Julie fooled around at some point.

 1      A.   Had some thing, yeah.

 2      Q.   Fooled around, that's it, not dating?

 3      A.   Yeah.

 4      Q.   A while back?

 5      A.   Yeah, supposedly.

 6      Q.   Fooled around.  Currently Julie and Vinnie are

 7   dating?

 8      A.   Yeah, hanging out.

 9      Q.   To some extent.

10      A.   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

11      Q.   Yesterday Ben was at Tristan's house?

12      A.   Yeah.

13      Q.   And Vinnie --

14      A.   Showed up.

15      Q.   -- entered probably without permission?

16      A.   Yeah.

17      Q.   Just showed up?

18      A.   Definitely, yes, came in the door --  

19      Q.   Because he wanted to fight Ben?

20      A.   –- and came upstairs.  Yes.  And wouldn't leave.

21      Q.   But he didn't fight Ben at Tristan's?

22      A.   He didn't.  He did not fight -- no, he didn't.  He

23   just -- he took money and left.

24      Q.   Okay.  Let me keep going.

25      A.   Yup.

 1      Q.   So Vinnie shows up at Tristan's, Ben is there,

 2   Vinnie wants to fight Ben?

 3      A.   Yup.

 4      Q.   Doesn't happen.  Vinnie leaves with some of

 5   Tristan's money from the table top?

 6      A.   I guess, yeah.  That's what I heard.

 7      Q.   Does Vinnie have a weapon or anything like that?

 8      A.   Yeah.  He's got a knife with him and a Taser.

 9      Q.   No, I mean, like at Tristan's.

10      A.   Yeah.  He had a knife and a Taser.

11      Q.   He was --

12      A.   That's what I heard.  I don't know.  I wasn't there,

13   officer, --

14      Q.   Okay.  Okay.

15      A.   -- so I can't -- this is information I'm not sure

16   about.  I'm telling you what was hearsay and what was what I

17   heard.

18      Q.   Got ya.  So anyway, Vinnie leaves?

19      A.   Yeah.  Vinnie leaves with the money and they pursue

20   to follow him into Springfield.  Tristan calls his buddy

21   Miar, whatever, which is his girlfriend's brother, Miar.  

22   His girlfriend is Michelle Lachapelle, okay.

23      Q.   Whose girlfriend?

24      A.   Tristan's girlfriend is Michelle Lachapelle.  She

25   was in the house.  Her and Tristan were yelling at this kid

 1   to leave.  He finally left with the money.  They all chased

 2   him down to Springfield, Gibb, Ben, Tristan and Michelle.

 3      Q.   Okay.  Hang on.  Let me catch up.  When did Gibb get

 4   there then?

 5      A.   I have no idea where Gibb comes in and --

 6      Q.   Okay.  But Michelle was there?

 7      A.   They called -- see, what happened was this kid

 8   pushed Michelle and Jordan Evelt, so Gibb was -- that's when

 9   Gibb came into it is when these girls got pushed, he stepped

10   into it and said, you don't mess around -- I don't know how

11   he got there to Springfield, I don't know that.  That's what

12   part you're going to have to figure out.  I have no idea.  I

13   was not there.

14      Q.   Okay.  

15      A.   I was in bed.  I didn't even talk to these guys at

16   all last night.

17      Q.   Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.

18   But this is Springfield you're talking now, right?

19      A.   Yeah.

20      Q.   Okay.

21      A.   Yes, because he -- Vinnie left --

22      Q.   So they followed him?

23      A.   Vinnie left with the money --

24      Q.   Vinnie --

25      A.   -- to Summer Hill where Julie lives.

 1      Q.   Hang on.  Stop there.  Tristan and Ben followed

 2   Vinnie to Springfield?

 3      A.   Yeah.

 4      Q.   Where Julie lives on Spring Hill, is that what you

 5   said?

 6      A.   Summer Hill.

 7      Q.   Summer Hill.

 8      A.   Summer Street Hill.  You know where you go up by

 9   Village Pizza and you take a --

10      Q.   What's Julie's last name?

11      A.   Julie Kronberg.

12      Q.   Kronberg?  

13      A.   Yup.  C-r-o-m-b-e-r-g or b-u-r-g, something like

14   that.

15      Q.   And what's Ben's last name?

16      A.   Millay, M-i-l-l-a-y.

17      Q.   M-i --

18      A.   -- l-l-a-y.

19      Q.   And Gibb's last name?

20      A.   a-y.

21      Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.

22      A.   Bastian, B-a-s-t-i-a-n.

23      Q.   And Tristan's last name?

24      A.   Blanchard, B-l-a-n-c-h-a-r-d.

25      Q.   And Vinnie, you don't know his last name?

 1      A.   I have no idea who Vinnie is at this point in time.

 2      Q.   Got ya.  Michelle is Tristan's girlfriend?

 3      A.   Michelle Lachapelle.

 4      Q.   Okay.  La --

 5      A.   c-h-, yup, p-e-l-l-e.

 6      Q.   Okay.  Am I missing anybody?  There's some other

 7   names you --

 8      A.   No, that's not it.  But there was a ton of people --

 9      Q.   Jordan?

10      A.   There was -- this Jordan Evelt, she was there too, I

11   guess, at the Springfield location.  I don't know where she

12   came into the -- I don't know where.  There was a bunch --

13      Q.   What's her last name?

14      A.   Evelt, E-v-e-l-t.  Another kid that was there was

15   Mike Gleason, Mike Gleason, he was there too.  There was a

16   bunch of people there at the Springfield location.  None of

17   which wanted to get involved.  The kid busted out a knife,

18   Vinnie, at the party that they were all at.

19      Q.   So Tristan and Ben follow Vinnie to --

20      A.   Yeah.

21      Q.   -- Julie's house?

22      A.   But they're calling people as they go there.

23      Q.   Yeah.

24      A.   You know what I mean, because they're scared.

25      Q.   Sure.

 1      A.   They can't beat this kid up.

 2      Q.   Right.

 3      A.   He knows that.

 4      Q.   Because he's a big dude.

 5      A.   He's big, yes, he's bigger than them, right.

 6      Q.   How tall is he?

 7      A.   I have no idea.  Like I'm telling you, officer, I

 8   have no --

 9      Q.   No, I'm just saying if they ever explained it to

10   you.

11      A.   I have no idea.  He's just wider than that doorway

12   is all I know.

13      Q.   Okay.  Um --

14      A.   So they call a couple other people.  At this point

15   in time there's 15 or 20 people that are all on the same

16   side and this one Vinnie kid, and he's got a Taser and a

17   knife, and he's not backing down from anybody.  He pushes

18   Michelle and Jordan.

19      Q.   And this is at Julie's house?

20      A.   At Julie's house.  Pushes Michelle and Jordan.

21      Q.   Yeah.

22      A.   And at this point in time Gibb starts -- you know,

23   says don't do anything, don't push them or whatever.  He

24   starts getting in -- he starts saying something to Vinnie.

25   As he looks away to look the other way, Vinnie has a knife

 1   in one hand, from what I heard, and clobbers Gibb with the

 2   other, knocking Gibb to the ground, knocking him out.  Just

 3   as he's getting up, the Springfield cops are getting there.

 4   But they got mad saying that Tristan harassed him because

 5   they followed him to Springfield.  So they didn't do

 6   anything to this kid Vinnie, even though he had a knife in

 7   his hand and he just knocked somebody out and he's, you

 8   know, a freak.

 9      Q.   Got ya.

10      A.   They didn't do anything.

11      Q.   So Springfield PD shows up at Julie's?

12      A.   Shows up.  They showed up, --

13      Q.   Okay.

14      A.   -- supposedly from what I heard.

15      Q.   And Gibb told you all of this so far?

16      A.   Yeah, Gibb told me all this.  Tristan told me all

17   this.  Because the reason I know this is because I picked

18   Tristan up later tonight -- today.  I picked Tristan up,

19   okay.

20      Q.   Okay.

21      A.   Later that night --

22      Q.   These guys all your age?  I mean --

23      A.   Tristan graduated with me.  Ben was a couple years

24   -- or Ben was a year older than me.  Gibb graduated, like,

25   three, four years ahead of me from Chester and my brother's

 1   two years.

 2      Q.   Where did you go to school, Springfield?

 3      A.   I went to Springfield.

 4      Q.   Okay.

 5      A.   And my brother's two years ahead of me in

 6   Springfield as well.

 7      Q.   Okay.

 8      A.   So after this Vinnie is pissed off, mad at

 9   everybody.

10      Q.   Sure.  Sure.

11      A.   He goes to Ben's house last night and slashes all

12   four of his tires at Walnut Hill Court in Springfield.

13      Q.   So Vinnie later goes to --

14      A.   Ben Millay's house.

15      Q.   -- Ben's --

16      A.   In Walnut Hill Court and slashes his tires.

17      Q.   That's Chester, you said?

18      A.   No.  That's Springfield.

19      Q.   Springfield.  Ben's house and slashes his tires.

20      A.   Slashes all of his tires.

21      Q.   Yeah.

22      A.   And that was all that happened last night.  So then

23   today -- so then today from what I heard he said, I guess,

24   from what was heard, what was said, that he was going to go

25   and find everybody who was involved in last night's episode

 1   and find 'em all, you know what I mean?  He already had

 2   found Ben, he slashed his tires.  He was going to go find

 3   everybody who was involved and beat their asses one by one.

 4      Q.   Who did you hear that from?  

 5      A.   That was just the word on the streets.  That's what

 6   Tristan told me because Tristan called me -- after I got out

 7   of work, which was at 3:00, I told you I picked up Kyle, we

 8   all went back to the apartment, and Tristan called me from

 9   there all -- out in front of his house worried, crying,

10   bawling, worried, saying, I don't feel safe here.  This

11   kid's --

12      Q.   Because Vinnie's coming after everybody?

13      A.   Vinnie keeps driving by his house.  When I left --

14   when I got back to my house and I started -- we pulled out,

15   Kirby Donahue, which is Gibb's ex, passed me, and I could

16   see there was two girls in the front and he was in the back,

17   this kid.  I had never seen him before so I don't even know

18   what he looks like, but I know that he's been hanging out

19   with Kirby, and the situation between Kirby and Gibb they

20   were going out for eight years and they broke up, see what

21   I'm saying?

22      Q.   Kirby's a girl?

23      A.   Kirby's the girl.

24      Q.   Got ya.

25      A.   And she's decided to hang out -- that's why this kid

 1   is hanging out with Julie and Kirby, okay.  Like, he's

 2   hanging out with both of these girls.  

 3      Q.   So that's why Gibb's so pissed off?

 4      A.   That's why Gibb's into it.  So then --

 5      Q.   What's Kirby's last name?

 6      A.   Donahue, D-o-n-n --

 7      Q.   Donahue?

 8      A.   Donahue, yup.

 9      Q.   And that's --

10      A.   She's from Chester.

11      Q.   -- Gibb's ex?

12      A.   Gibb's ex for years.  They just broke up, like, a

13   couple weeks ago, so it's been a rough situation, you know

14   what I mean?

15      Q.   But she's been hanging around with this Vinnie guy?

16      A.   With this Vinnie guy, I guess, or she was today

17   obviously, I saw her with him and I saw, you know, that she

18   had been hanging out with him and that was -- I don't know.

19   I don't know what happened last night.

20      Q.   No, that's all right.  Yeah, I know, it's --

21      A.   I really don't.  This is what I heard.  This is

22   hearsay.  You'll have to check into that information.

23      Q.   Yeah.  No, I know.  I know.  You're just -- I

24   appreciate the info because you're -- at least I'm --

25      A.   So that's what I heard from Tristan.  I didn't know

 1   any of this information until I got the call from Tristan,

 2   who was bawling his eyes out saying that, I don't feel safe

 3   in my home.  I've never felt -- I think I'm going to have to

 4   move.  This kid broke into my house yesterday.  I'm scared.

 5   Michelle's scared.  I don't know what to do.  So we said,

 6   we'll come pick you up so you feel -- you know, so you feel

 7   safe.  We had just got done scouting, me Kyle and Jerry, we

 8   were just out, all out in the woods scouting.

 9      Q.   For deer?

10      A.   For deer.  For just looking -- we were out on this

11   back road just cruising it, --

12      Q.   I was doing the same thing today.

13      A.   -- looking for trails.  Just looking for deer runs,

14   that was it.

15      Q.   Yeah.

16      A.   Nothing -- you know, and that was all we were doing.

17      Q.   Yeah.

18      A.   We'd only been out of work -- I'd only been out of

19   work an hour and a half.

20      Q.   So what time were you on the phone with Tristan

21   about?

22      A.   That was probably, I want to say, probably about

23   4:30-ish, five.  

24      Q.   I'm not holding you the minute.  

25      A.   Probably around 4:30, 5:00, because I got out of

 1   work at 2:30, and that was in Springfield, and I came back

 2   to Chester, and we went out in the woods, and then we came

 3   back to my apartment and that's when I saw Kirby, this kid

 4   and everything else and Tristan called us and said, he keeps

 5   driving by our house.  He went out in his car, and they were

 6   following him in his car.  They kept following him.  He was

 7   worried about -- like, he was obviously, like, he said --

 8   like I said, he was scared shitless of this kid.  Never been

 9   -- I've never -- he said, he goes, I've never -- Corey, he

10   goes, I've never felt like I've had to have a gun in Vermont

11   to protect myself and, he goes, I feel like I have to

12   because I can't do nothing to protect my girlfriend,

13   anything.

14      Q.   What does Vinnie drive?  You said he was seen --

15      A.   I have no idea what he drives.

16      Q.   Okay.  I just didn't know if he told you.

17      A.   He was with Kirby in her Volkswagen.

18      Q.   Okay.

19      A.   It's a hatchback Volkswagen.  You know, I don't even

20   know what this kid looks like, so I couldn't even tell you

21   if I saw -- if you put in Vinnie I'd be, like, --

22      Q.   Yeah.  No idea.  

23      A.   Yeah.  I don't even know the kid.

24      Q.   Okay.

25      A.   So all’s I know is that Jerry said he was, like,

 1   yeah, that was that kid because he somehow knows what he

 2   looks like or --

 3      Q.   Who's Jerry?

 4      A.   Jerry Ucci was -- he works with my brother at

 5   Homestead, and they're always together.

 6      Q.   So you were with Jerry --

 7      A.   Yeah.

 8      Q.   -- scouting today?

 9      A.   Me, Jerry and Kyle.  Scouting, yes.

10      Q.   Okay.

11      A.   We went back to the apartment so I could tell my

12   girlfriend what we were doing.

13      Q.   You, Jerry and Kyle?

14      A.   Yeah.

15      Q.   What's Jerry's last name?

16      A.   Ucci.  I think it's U-s-s-i.

17      Q.   And what's Kyle's last name?

18      A.   Same as mine.

19      Q.   Oh, that's your brother.

20      A.   My brother.  

21      Q.   Got ya.  So you guys were scouting for deer season

22   from 2:30 --

23      A.   Yeah.

24      Q.   -- till 4:30 in that area?

25      A.   Yeah.  We went out looking at trails and stuff, and

 1   obviously we had a -- we had a .22 with us and I think -- I

 2   don't know.  There was another -- it was another -- it was a

 3   high powered rifle.  It was, whatever.

 4      Q.   Yeah.

 5      A.   It's always in the truck.

 6      Q.   Sure.

 7      A.   It's unloaded for, you know, in case you ever run

 8   into bear or anything when --

 9      Q.   Yeah.

10      A.   -- you're scouting out, you carry a gun with you.

11      Q.   I always have a gun, yup.

12      A.   It's not like we're shooting illegal game but just

13   in case.  You just carry a gun with you in the woods,

14   especially this time of year.

15      Q.   Okay.

16      A.   So anyhow, we got out of the woods.  We went back

17   there and we saw him, then we called Tristan and we talked

18   to Tristan, and he was scared.  So we went back to his

19   place, picked Tristan up.  So now me and Tristan are

20   together, Tristan started driving, and he was with me and

21   Kyle and Jerry, and that was it, in Kyle's car.

22      Q.   So there was four of you?

23      A.   Me, Kyle, Jerry, yeah.

24      Q.   The three of you guys that were scouting --

25      A.   Yeah.

 1      Q.   -- and Tristan?

 2      A.   And Tristan.  And Kyle's dog at that point.

 3      Q.   You guys were riding around then or --

 4      A.   Yeah, we had just left my house.  We went and picked

 5   Tristan up.

 6      Q.   So you're in your truck, or your brother's truck

 7   or --

 8      A.   No, we were in my brother's truck.

 9      Q.   Kyle's truck?

10      A.   Kyle's truck.

11      Q.   So you went to Tristan's in Kyle's truck.

12      A.   We picked Kyle -- or we went -- yeah.

13      Q.   So then it's you, Jerry, Kyle, Tristan riding

14   together?

15      A.   Yup.

16      Q.   Got ya.  

17      A.   And he's telling us what's going on and how he's so

18   scared, everything else, blah, blah, blah.  He's scared, he

19   don't know what to do.

20      Q.   So Tristan tells you --

21      A.   Yeah.

22      Q.   -- all this above information?

23      A.   Yeah, this, yeah.  I start saying, you know, what's

24   going on?  What's going on?  He's telling me.  He says, you

25   know, he's, like, telling me everything that's going on.  

 1   So, you know, me and Tristan had our differences, but we're

 2   good -- I would never want anybody to get the shit kicked

 3   out of 'em.  We're pretty --

 4      Q.   For what?

 5      A.   You know, we used hate each other and now we're

 6   decent friends and --

 7      Q.   Yeah.

 8      A.   And I'd expect somebody to help me out if some huge

 9   kid was going to beat the shit out of me --

10      Q.   Sure.

11      A.   -- and was stalking my house.  Like I said, he's

12   like, you know, I don't feel -- the kid came up to my house

13   yesterday once already with a knife.  What's he going to

14   come up with next, a gun?  Something.  

15      Q.   Okay.

16      A.   I don't know.  So he was scared.  We picked him up.

17   And he had told his girlfriend and this other girl to leave

18   so that way this kid showed up, they wouldn't be there.

19      Q.   Who is Tristan's girlfriend?

20      A.   Michelle Lachapelle.

21      Q.   Yeah.  Yeah.

22      A.   So they left and we left.

23      Q.   And who was with Michelle?

24      A.   I'm not sure.  I think Jordan, that Jordan chick, I

25   think.

 1      Q.   Yeah.

 2      A.   I don't know.

 3      Q.   That's all right.

 4      A.   I think.

 5      Q.   So Tristan tells Michelle and Jordan to leave his

 6   house?

 7      A.   Yes.

 8      Q.   So there's nobody at Tristan's house?

 9      A.   Yeah.  So that way if the kid comes back -- you got

10   somebody knocking.  Hello?

11      Q.   No, I think it was my foot.  Sorry.  So he tells the

12   girls to leave?  

13      A.   Yeah.  We all leave.

14      Q.   In case Vinnie shows up?

15      A.   In case, yeah, because they don't -- he doesn't, you

16   know, scared for them.

17      Q.   Yup.

18      A.   He doesn't --

19      Q.   Yup.

20      A.   So we all leave and we're driving.  We're just

21   driving around.  And Jerry calls Kirby because, like I said,

22   we had thought we had seen this kid.  And Tristan wanted to

23   talk to this kid and tell him, you know, what is your

24   problem.  But he's too scared of the kid.  So Jerry calls

25   Kirby up saying, where's this kid?  Where is Vinnie?  

 1   Talking to Vinnie, you know.  What are you doing?  What's

 2   your problem?  This kid gets on the phone saying he's gonna

 3   -- he's a crazy mother F'er and he's going to find everyone

 4   involved and all this shit.

 5      Q.   So Jerry gets on the phone with him?

 6      A.   Yeah, oh, yeah.

 7      Q.   Because they're riding together?

 8      A.   Jerry calls --

 9      Q.   Jerry and --

10      A.   -- Kirby.  

11      Q.   Yup.

12      A.   Yup.  And Kirby gives the phone to this other kid.

13      Q.   So Kirby and Vinnie are together?

14      A.   Yeah.  Because Tristan had confirmed that they were

15   driving by his house.  They kept seeing this car drive by.

16   So we were, like, oh, that makes sense.  We had seen some

17   kid with Kirby earlier, you know.

18      Q.   So Jerry talks to Vinnie on the phone?

19      A.   Jerry knows Kirby.  Jerry went to Chester with

20   Kirby, you know what I mean?  We live in Chester, me and

21   Kyle, but I'm from Springfield.  So I don't really know

22   Jerry that well, I don't know Kirby that well.  Gibb's from

23   Chester.  I don't really -- but Jerry knows Kirby, so he

24   calls up Kirby and he's, like, you know, let me talk to this

25   Vinnie kid.  This Vinnie kid gets on the phone saying he's

 1   going to beat everybody up, you know, he's going to hurt

 2   everyone, all this and that.  So Jerry, I think, told him to

 3   -- or he was asking him where he was or whatever, and the

 4   kid was saying he was going to beat him up, and he told him

 5   to -- I think he told him to -- that's why I don't -- I

 6   don't remember this part exactly, but I think he told him to

 7   go down to the ball field.  That's why I think the kid

 8   showed up there.  That's why I don't -- I don't -- I was

 9   inside at Jiffy Mart at this point in time.  I don't really

10   -- there was some -- there was some blue areas of where I

11   don't know, you know what I mean?

12      Q.   So you think Jerry told Vinnie to go to the ball

13   field?

14      A.   Right.  And Vinnie -- I mean, Jerry called up this

15   kid Tim, Tim Parker.  This is -- he's a bigger kid.  He

16   plays on the softball team.  He calls up -- Jerry and this

17   Tim are good friends, and Tim's a well known tough guy or

18   whatever, you know, whatever, I guess, and so frickin' --

19   he's, like, yeah, bring him -- have him come down to the

20   ball field, blah, blah, blah, this and that or something, I

21   think.  So that's why I think that he told him to go to the

22   ball field, obviously, because, you know, they're all --

23   this kid's huge and he's on steroids and they know he's got

24   weapons.  They know at this point in time he's got a knife,

25   he's got, you know, a Taser.  He's already threatened it

 1   once, you know, you know, so --

 2      Q.   Is Jerry your brother Kyle's friend?  Is that --

 3      A.   Yup.  They work at Homestead together.

 4      Q.   Got ya.

 5      A.   Yeah.

 6      Q.   I just wanted to make sure we didn't have a

 7   different Jerry here.  

 8      A.   Nope.  No.

 9      Q.   Okay.  So the four of you are together?

10      A.   Yeah.

11      Q.   You believe Jerry tells Vinnie to show up at the

12   ball field?

13      A.   Right.  And --

14      Q.   And Jerry has a --

15      A.   In, like, X amount of minutes, 20 minutes, you

16   better be at the ball field.  But this kid hangs up or

17   whatever.  So Jerry calls Tim Arbuckle, Tim Arbuckle, and

18   says who is playing at the softball game?  And Tim is the

19   one that tells us to come down there or whatever, I think,

20   or tells -- you know what I mean?  He says, you know, come

21   down here and I'll (inaudible).  Like I said, he's a tough

22   guy or whatever and --

23      Q.   So does he talk to Tim before he calls Vinnie and

24   tells him to go to the softball field or --

25      A.   I think it was -- I don't know if it was after or

 1   before.

 2      Q.   Okay.

 3      A.   I think it was probably after because if he -- if

 4   Tim said come to the softball field and then that was when

 5   Jerry probably was, like -- I think because the kid hung up.  

 6   I think Jerry called back and said, if you're a man or, you

 7   know, meet me at the softball field or whatever.  That's

 8   why, you know, and then we all -- they said, go down to the

 9   softball field.  So I went down there, not knowing really of

10   the full intentions of what was going on.  But we still had

11   those two -- those two guns with us, whatever.

12      Q.   So just let me make sure with this Tim Arbuckle

13   thing.  Jerry calls Tim.  Tim is a tough guy down at the

14   softball field and says --

15      A.   Yeah, Tim just --

16      Q.   -- bring him this way?

17      A.   Yeah, no, I guess, Tim, yeah, Tim said, you know,

18   I'll take care of it.  I mean, Tim was called last night, I

19   guess, when this kid was messing around because Tim is

20   supposedly Tristan's girlfriend's, like he just, I don't

21   know, he will help him out or whatever.  Like I said, he's a

22   tough guy.  So he says, you know, come down here.

23          So the kid -- you know, I mean, we all go down there

24   and they're having their little game down there and we're

25   all hanging out there for a little bit, not doing -- you

 1   know, we're all fine down there.  Then all of a sudden this

 2   car pulls up, which is down by -- you know, the field's here

 3   and there was -- you know what I mean, there's the white

 4   trailer here, you take a left into the field and --

 5      Q.   Yeah.

 6      A.   -- before you come around, he was waiting down here

 7   in this car, okay.  We're all down here at the field.

 8      Q.   How long were you guys at the field before he showed

 9   up?

10      A.   Probably 15 minutes, 20 minutes.

11      Q.   Did you see the car or did you see this guy first or

12   did -- who recognized him?

13      A.   I had no -- somebody -- Tim and Kyle and Jerry or

14   something, they started walking, like, out and Tristan was,

15   like, that's that kid or whatever.  He got out of the car

16   and he was going like this.

17      Q.   Tim or Vinnie?

18      A.   No, no.  This Vinnie kid.  They got out of the gray

19   car, and he was from far away, but you could tell that that

20   was the kid.  And he's, like, bring it.  Look how many it

21   takes of you.  And this is just me.  And he's got the Taser

22   and he keeps going like this, and they were, like, --

23      Q.   Was this Kirby's car he's in?

24      A.   I don't -- no, no, no.  This is a different car.

25   This is just a gray four-door sedan at this point in time,

 1   the one that was still down at the scene.  

 2      Q.   Okay.  Not sure whose car.  Yeah.

 3      A.   So this kid, he's yelling, he has a Taser.  And

 4   they're, like, drop the Taser, drop the Taser.  So he

 5   finally -- I think he puts the Taser in the front seat, but

 6   he gets out the axe, gets out a axe out of the car and

 7   starts running towards -- saying he's crazy, starts running

 8   towards my brother and Jerry and I think it was Tim or some

 9   other kid that was up there talking with him.  You know what

10   I mean?  They're at the ball field, a little bit beyond --

11   the vehicles are -- the ball field, the vehicles, and

12   they're up here talking, and he's over here at this car

13   waving his arms saying, you know, come get me, come get me.  

14   So he comes --

15      Q.   What’s the Taser look like?

16      A.   I don't -- it's far away.

17      Q.   Could you see it?

18      A.   It's far away.  Yeah, you could see the thing

19   glowing on.

20      Q.   You could see the glow?

21      A.   Yeah, you could hear it.  You could hear the Taser.

22   So he -- I think he put it down or -- I don't think he put

23   it down.  He probably put it in his pocket, but he started

24   -- he grabbed the axe, whatever was in the front seat -- or

25   he was in the back seat, both the girls in the front seat,

 1   and he comes running towards everybody that's --

 2      Q.   So there was two girls in the front seat?

 3      A.   Yeah, I think so.  I'm pretty sure, yeah.  Because

 4   that was who was with -- I think at the switched cars.  They

 5   were in Kirby's car, and I think they switched into this

 6   other car because it wasn't Kirby's car that pulled up down

 7   there.  It wasn't the Golf.  It was a different car.

 8      Q.   Okay.  So not Kirby's?

 9      A.   Not Kirby's.

10      Q.   Do you know if Kirby was there or --

11      A.   Yeah, I think she was.  I don't -- I can't tell you

12   for sure, but I'm pretty sure that -- obviously he was just

13   with her 15 minutes before.  Unless he went, you know, and

14   got with two different girls right then.

15      Q.   Yeah.  Yeah.  So you think it's Kirby, but you're

16   not sure who the other one is?

17      A.   I'm pretty positive it's Kirby, and I don't know who

18   -- maybe Julie.  I don't know.  I don't know at that point

19   in time.  Don't know.

20      Q.   Got ya.

21      A.   All’s I know is I'm back in kind of the recessed

22   crowd area, you know, where everybody else is, and everybody

23   knows what's going on because this kid is screaming saying

24   he's going to beat everybody up and everything else, and he

25   comes running after everybody, towards the vehicles.  So

 1   Jerry runs one way, Kyle runs the other way, and this other

 2   kid runs the other way, and I'm back, you know, in the crowd

 3   area.  And so this kid comes -- Kyle goes running back, and

 4   this kid starts running back towards him, and Kyle goes --

 5   he says, unlock my truck or -- I don't know, he said

 6   something, he was going to get in his truck, and the kid was

 7   running after him.

 8      Q.   This is your brother?

 9      A.   Yeah.

10      Q.   He's running after --

11      A.   My brother shut the door like this or something and

12   the kid just -- that's when he struck the windshield and

13   then just started beating the side of the truck.

14      Q.   So this is Kyle's truck we're talking?

15      A.   Yeah.

16      Q.   Is Kyle in the truck?

17      A.   Yeah.

18      Q.   He gets in the truck now?

19      A.   Gets in the truck.  I'm pretty sure.  I'm pretty

20   sure.

21      Q.   No, I know.  I'm just trying to --

22      A.   He gets in the truck.  He hops in the truck.  And

23   this kid -- because the truck was unlocked, so I hit unlock.

24      Q.   Was Vinnie chasing him or --

25      A.   Yeah, Vinnie was chasing them with the -- with the

 1   axe.  And that's the problem is is that the truck, Kyle's

 2   truck, was locked, and he was going to run into the truck

 3   for protection, and the truck was locked, so he was trying

 4   to get into the truck, and Vinnie's chasing him with the

 5   axe.  So I hit unlock.  Kyle opens the door and shuts it,

 6   and the kid starts smashing at the truck with the axe.

 7          So Kyle grabs the gun, one of the guns, and he gets

 8   out the other side of the truck and starts -- and goes

 9   around the truck and he's, like, Get back.  Get back.  You

10   know, like, telling this kid get back.  The kid's just

11   smashed up his truck, tried to smash him up with an axe.  

12   Just barely missed him, just barely.  He shut the door and

13   the kid struck the door, the windshield, smashing it.  So

14   Kyle gets out and he's, like, Get back, Get back.  And the

15   kid comes running towards him, dude, again.  I mean, it was

16   somebody even -- so I think -- that's when I think there was

17   a shot that went off or something and --

18      Q.   How did you unlock the door?

19      A.   Because I have the keys.

20      Q.   So you had the --

21      A.   The padlock.

22      Q.   Okay.  How far were you from this?

23      A.   I was on the opposite side of the truck.

24      Q.   Oh, okay.

25      A.   Okay.  See what I'm saying?  There's the ball field

 1   here, here are the vehicles, here was him.  And he was

 2   running this way.  Everybody was fleeing back this way.  

 3   Kyle -- there's the truck.  So Kyle was trying to get in the

 4   truck and he came and smashed the truck.  I'm over here.  

 5   I'm on the opposite side.  Everybody's near the tent,

 6   everybody's back this way.  So Kyle gets out this side and

 7   starts looping around the vehicle, you know.

 8      Q.   Yeah.

 9      A.   And this kid's looping around the vehicle and he's

10   coming at -- he's pursuing this kid with this axe and

11   smashing shit.

12      Q.   How many times do you think this Vinnie hits the

13   truck with the axe?

14      A.   I don't know.  Probably five, six times, seven times

15   as hard as he can, seems like, just smashing it.  Obviously

16   he's --

17      Q.   In what area?  Because I haven't seen the truck.

18      A.   The door, the whole driver's side.  Kyle got in the  

19   truck and literally as he shut the door, this kid was --

20   struck first, smashed out the whole windshield, then he

21   smashes the door, then he smashes something -- I think the

22   windshield, I don't know.  He just was smashing it.  Just

23   smashing.  Just hammering.

24      Q.   All the driver's side and --

25      A.   The whole driver's side of the truck, the door, the

 1   windshield, I think the whole front windshield.

 2      Q.   Five you figure --

 3      A.   Four, five, at least five or six blows with this

 4   axe.  Full swing blows, looking to try and hurt somebody.

 5      Q.   Full swings to driver's side.

 6      A.   Yeah.  So everybody's taking back --

 7      Q.   Now, what you said he almost hit your brother or --

 8      A.   Yes because -- yes.

 9      Q.   Was that the first one or --

10      A.   He just started running at whoever was the nearest

11   person and --

12      Q.   Right.

13      A.   You know what I mean?  And then he realized that

14   Kyle was trying to open the door and that he couldn't open

15   it, so he realized that was his opportunity to -- you know

16   what I mean?  He couldn't open the door, so he knew that he

17   was trying to open the door, and so he came running after

18   him at that point in time knowing that the door was locked

19   and he could probably smash him, you know what I mean?

20      Q.   Right.

21      A.   Knowing what the situation was, I felt like.  So as

22   soon as I unlocked the door and as soon as I unlocked the

23   door, Kyle opened it, jumped in, this kid's just a step

24   behind him, smashed the car.

25      Q.   So the first strike was right where Kyle was getting

 1   into the driver's seat -- is it a four-door truck or --

 2      A.   Yeah, it's a four door.  It's an extended cab.  You

 3   have to pull -- you have to open up the driver's side to

 4   open up the --

 5      Q.   Okay.  So it was the driver's door?

 6      A.   Yeah, it was the driver's door.  He opened up the

 7   driver's door and he got in the driver's door.

 8      Q.   Got ya.

 9      A.   And just as he closed the driver's door to lock it,

10   this kid started smashing -- he's right there smashing

11   through.  So he, Kyle, unloaded out the other side of the

12   truck.  Having, you know, being in the truck and this kid

13   smashing the axe, comes out of the opposite side of the

14   truck.  Now, you can picture the truck and people doing --  

15   you know, he's, Vinnie's, running after Kyle around the

16   truck trying to hit him with this axe still, and Kyle is,

17   you know, trying to say, get back, get back.  I think he

18   shot once or something and the kid still didn't -- he still

19   wouldn't get back.  So they're running around the truck.

20      Q.   So when Kyle gets out of the passenger side of the

21   truck, --

22      A.   Yeah.

23      Q.   -- does Vinnie go after him or is he still hitting

24   the truck or --

25      A.   Yeah, Vinnie's on the -- Vinnie's on the driver's

 1   side at this point in time and the door is shut, and then

 2   the passenger side he opens, he gets out of that, I'm pretty

 3   -- 100 percent positive, --

 4      Q.   Uh-huh.

 5      A.   -- and like I said, Kyle comes over this way and

 6   Vinnie circles around this way and then starts running after

 7   him.  Kyle runs over this way and says, Get back.  Get back.  

 8   So at this point in time I think he -- I think Kyle shot

 9   once into the ground and said, Get back.  Get back.  And the

10   kid still didn't get back.  That's all I know.  There was a

11   second gun that was in the truck --

12      Q.   Uh-huh.  

13      A.   -- at this point in time, okay.  Now, if you got the

14   truck here --

15      Q.   Hang on.  You know what, let me give you a -- let me

16   give you a fresh piece of paper and I'll have you –- you can

17   draw this, if you want.  There you go.

18      A.   Now, if you got the truck here with the doors open.

19   Here's this kid.  Here's Kyle or whatever, here's Kyle, and

20   here's the gun.  Kyle's got one gun.  This kid's over here,

21   psycho, with a bat or whatever.

22      Q.   Yeah.

23      A.   And then here's the other guy, two doors open.

24      Q.   Okay.

25      A.   Here I am.  I know what was going on.

 1      Q.   Is this the -- this is the front of the truck?

 2      A.   Yeah, front of the truck.  Here's the tent.  Here's

 3   the parking lot.

 4      Q.   So --

 5      A.   No, the truck -- if here's the parking lot, the

 6   truck was parked like this, you know.  So this kid -- here's

 7   the tent, here's the field, here's the tent.  He came

 8   running this way.  Everybody retreated back this way.  Kyle

 9   was trying to get into his door here and that's when he

10   smashed it.  So Kyle jumped out this side, you know what I

11   mean?  

12      Q.   Uh-huh.

13      A.   And then this door was open, and this kid ran around

14   and Kyle ran around like this.  And then this door was open.

15   The gun was laying right there.

16      Q.   Okay.

17      A.   Okay?  Another gun.

18      Q.   Yeah.

19      A.   And regardless of whether it's right, whatever, I

20   think it had a couple shells in it, I don't know.

21      Q.   Right.

22      A.   So I don't know what's going on.  I don't want him

23   to get the gun.

24      Q.   Vinnie?

25      A.   Vinnie.

 1      Q.   Yeah.

 2      A.   Yeah, obviously, you know what I mean.  He's psycho.

 3   I don't know what he's going to do.  If he gets this gun and

 4   there are all these kids here, what is he going to do?  I

 5   don't know.  So I run up and I grab this gun out of the car

 6   and I run back here.

 7      Q.   Where's -- where's Tristan?

 8      A.   I don't know.  He's running around.  People are

 9   running around.  People that are involved in the whole

10   situation are just scared.  Kyle is the only one, I don't

11   know if he's stupid, but he gets himself try to help out his

12   friends and --

13      Q.   Yeah.

14      A.   I'm saying people are just running around.  People

15   were just running.  There's people -- Tim and this -- Tim

16   Arbuckle, I think he ran off.  This other kid ran off.  You

17   know, I don't know where Kyle, my brother, went after this

18   situation -- no, that's what happened.  I went and grabbed

19   the gun out of the -- the other gun out of the passenger

20   seat and ran back here.

21      Q.   So --

22      A.   Okay.

23      Q.   Let me back up a little bit.  Just where I got my

24   notes here.  Kyle gets out of the opposite side of the

25   truck?

 1      A.   Yup.

 2      Q.   Passenger side?

 3      A.   Yup.  He grabbed one gun obviously because the kid

 4   was swinging an axe.

 5      Q.   With gun.  So Vinnie goes to that passenger side.  

 6   Is he still hitting the truck or is he going at Kyle or is

 7   he going at somebody else?

 8      A.   No, he's running around the truck with the axe like

 9   -- he's got the axe over his head and he's still -- he's not

10   hitting the truck at this point it in time.  He was trying

11   to hit Kyle when Kyle was getting into the truck.  That's

12   why it wasn't just trying do damage to the vehicle.  He was

13   trying to do humanly damage.

14      Q.   Right.

15      A.   So he's running around at this point in time after

16   Kyle, okay.  They're doing circles around the truck.  That's

17   when I said, this ain't good.  There's a gun in the middle

18   of the car and there's a door open.  And there's a psycho on

19   one side of it.

20      Q.   So he's chasing Kyle around the truck?

21      A.   Yeah.  And Kyle's the one with the gun and he's

22   going forward still, just pressing forward, still trying  

23   to --

24      Q.   What's Kyle saying to him?

25      A.   Get back.  Stop.  Get back, he's saying, I think

 1   that's what he's saying.

 2      Q.   Yeah.

 3      A.   Get back.  You know.

 4      Q.   So he's just trying to --

 5      A.   Self-defense.  Get back.  Stop fuckin' chasing me

 6   with the thing, you know.  Stop chasing -- that's what we

 7   were all saying.  The kid -- he charged at everybody trying

 8   to beat everybody up with this, and he was just, like, you

 9   know, get back.  Get back.  And he's still running after

10   him.  That's when I ran up and grabbed this gun.

11      Q.   Was there a shot before you grabbed the gun?

12      A.   I think so.  That's what I said.  I think so.  I

13   told you that, I think.

14      Q.   Yeah, I just wanted to make sure.

15      A.   I think -- I think -- I think there -- I think Kyle

16   said, Get back and shot into the ground first and this kid

17   still kept coming.

18      Q.   So you think Kyle shot into the ground?

19      A.   Just to warn him saying, get back, get back, get

20   back, and he kept coming.  That's why I got scared as I'm a

21   bystander sitting back here with all these people, kids and

22   everything else.

23      Q.   So you were concerned about –-

24      A.   Well, I just –

25      Q.   -- the other gun?

 1      A.   Yeah.  I knew that there was another gun, and I knew

 2   that both the doors were open, and this other gun is in the

 3   truck and is in -- you know what I mean?  I don't -- this

 4   other -- I don't know if this kid knows it or whatever, but

 5   if he looked up and saw a gun in the middle of the seat, you

 6   know what I mean, what do you -- you know what I mean?  

 7   Worse situation, what do you think would -- you know what

 8   could happen.  I knew what could happen.  I knew that this

 9   kid could grab the gun and then try to -- and try to load it

10   and then try and -- you know.  So I grabbed the gun, and I

11   recessed back, and he came running around the corner like

12   this at me.  So I shot a shot into the ground.

13      Q.   Which -- which side did you get the gun from?

14      A.   Driver's side.  Kyle was on this side.  Kyle was on

15   the driver's side.  While this other kid's on the passenger

16   side, I'm back here, you know what I mean?  They were

17   running around, then I thought of it, and obviously I just

18   didn't want him to get the upper hand and grab a gun, so I

19   went and I grabbed the .22.

20      Q.   So when you grabbed the .22, you're doing it from

21   the driver's side?

22      A.   I grabbed it and ran back.  I grabbed it and ran

23   back like this.

24      Q.   Okay.

25      A.   So now I'm standing here, and he's here at the end

 1   of this corner.  He comes running this way.

 2      Q.   Okay.  So you grabbed the gun?

 3      A.   See what I'm saying, he don't think anybody is going

 4   to do anything with the gun.

 5      Q.   Right.  

 6      A.   He doesn't think anybody is going to ever do

 7   anything, so he's still pressing on with the axe at this

 8   point in time.  So I grabbed the gun just to get it out of

 9   the situation so this kid doesn't not only have an axe and a

10   knife, he don't have a gun too.

11      Q.   Now, when you grabbed the gun, you backed up?

12      A.   Yup.

13      Q.   Did you back up into the crowd or --

14      A.   Well, I backed -- I just -- I grabbed it and I

15   backed up this way.  You know, everybody was kind of like in

16   through here.

17      Q.   Is that a tent?

18      A.   The tent was here, the field was like this, there's

19   a tent right there.

20      Q.   Okay.  So you back up towards the tent?

21      A.   Yeah, I back up towards the tent, but I'm not -- you

22   know, I'm not in the tent or whatever.  There was a green

23   pickup truck right here, as a matter of fact.  He came --

24   there was a green pickup truck right here.  He came around

25   like this.  I fired a shot into the ground and I recessed

 1   back and put the gun right there on that pickup truck.  And

 2   Kyle came around -- that was when Kyle came around and was

 3   like -- or this kid came around, he came around this side,

 4   and Kyle went back around and he said, Get back, and that's

 5   when I don't know what happened after that.  I just heard a

 6   shot.

 7      Q.   Okay.  So hang on.

 8      A.   That was when that whole thing happened.

 9      Q.   Let me catch back up.  We'll talk about Kyle.  I

10   just want to make sure I got what you said about you right.  

11   So you were concerned about the other gun in the truck.  You

12   reached in from the driver's side and grab it.  And that was

13   a .22?

14      A.   Uh-huh.

15      Q.   Like, what kind of -- do you know what kind of .22?

16      A.   It was just like a --

17      Q.   Was it yours or was it --

18      A.   No, it was Kyle's.

19      Q.   Okay.  But it's not a pistol, it's a rifle?

20      A.   No, it's a rifle.  It's just a squirrel hunting gun.

21      Q.   Yeah.  Yeah.

22      A.   When you're out scouting you shoot, you know,

23   whatever.  You just bring your .22.

24      Q.   Okay.  So you get the gun and you back up towards

25   the tent but not into it, is that --

 1      A.   Right.  Right.  Yup.  I back up.  I just back up,

 2   like, probably 20 yards, you know, from the vehicle.  I just

 3   wanted to get out of the situation.

 4      Q.   Yeah, I understand.

 5      A.   The tent's over here.  People are over at the fence,

 6   the softball field, here's the tent right here.  Here's this

 7   vehicle right here, this green truck.  I grabbed the gun and

 8   ran back towards here.

 9      Q.   Were you behind the green truck or were you --

10      A.   In front of it, like, near the bed of it.  You know,

11   the truck's facing the tent.

12      Q.   Okay.  I got ya.

13      A.   See what I'm saying?

14      Q.   Yeah, I see.

15      A.   The truck's facing this way.  Kyle's truck's over

16   here.  So I recede back towards this truck.

17      Q.   And how far is the green truck from your brother

18   Kyle's truck?

19      A.   I'd say probably 40 -- 30, 30 yards.  I don't know.

20   It's hard -- there's quite a distance.  You could see it if

21   you went to the crime scene right now.  There's a definite

22   distance in between this truck and this truck.

23      Q.   30 to 40 yards you estimate?

24      A.   Probably 30 yards, yeah.  

25      Q.   Okay.

 1      A.   So but he's on this corner, you know what I mean?

 2   It's kind of a ballsy situation.  I grabbed it, and I came

 3   back this way, and he started running around this way.

 4      Q.   So he starts coming around the front of the truck?

 5      A.   He starts coming around the front of the truck.

 6      Q.   Yup.  And what's going on then when he's --

 7      A.   I'm back -- I'm back here.

 8      Q.   Yeah.

 9      A.   And he's over here.

10      Q.   Yeah.

11      A.   So I shot -- I just shot a shot into the ground

12   right here.  I just went like this, "boom."

13      Q.   Okay.  How far -- how far was --

14      A.   Vinnie was probably --

15      Q.   -- Vinnie from you when you shoot in the ground?

16      A.   Probably 20 -- 20 -- I don't know.  It's hard.

17   Probably, like, 15, 20 yards I want to say.  You know, plus

18   he's running in this direction.  So, I mean, you know, when

19   somebody's running, he can close distance fast.  I just shot

20   -- I just shot into the ground and dropped -- recessed into

21   this truck and dropped the gun.  That's when Kyle and him

22   were still going around the vehicle at this point in time.  

23   And he's still coming after him, still yelling stuff saying

24   he's gonna --

25      Q.   So Vinnie's still chasing --

 1      A.   Still.

 2      Q.   -- Kyle?

 3      A.   Still.

 4      Q.   The whole time?

 5      A.   He doesn't think he's going to -- he doesn't think

 6   nothing's going -- he doesn't anything's going to happen.  

 7   He thinks he's going to hit somebody with his frickin' axe.

 8      Q.   All right.

 9      A.   So I'm back in the crowd now with all these people.

10      Q.   So you're back near this green truck?

11      A.   Yeah.  I dropped the gun right --

12      Q.   Hang on.  Hang on.  Let me catch up with that just

13   so I make sure.  You're near the green truck with the gun.

14      A.   Yeah.  I dropped it.

15      Q.   Yeah, I haven't got there yet.  Vinnie comes around

16   the front of the truck.  Is he still chasing Kyle?

17      A.   Yeah.  He comes around this way.  Kyle was right

18   here, and Kyle kept going around like this.

19      Q.   Okay.  So Vinnie --

20      A.   It was either this or this way.  I'm not sure.  

21   All’s I know is that he got shot back here at this side of

22   the truck from Kyle, and I don't -- he was chasing him

23   around this way or this -- you know what I mean?  Probably

24   this way.

25      Q.   Okay.   

 1      A.   Makes more sense.

 2      Q.   So anyways, while you're near the green truck with

 3   the .22, --

 4      A.   While I'm back here, he had came running around this

 5   way, and then I think he ran back this way.

 6      Q.   Okay.

 7      A.   You know, Kyle stepped up when I was receding back

 8   because I didn't -- I don't really want to -- like I said,

 9   I'm scared.  I don't want to get myself into this situation.

10   I was just trying to defuse the situation by getting the gun

11   out of the area, you know what I mean?

12      Q.   Uh-huh.

13      A.   Because seriously, you're in the middle between a

14   car that's open between this kid who's got a gun who's

15   psycho and  -- you know what I mean?

16      Q.   Uh-huh.

17      A.   I just grabbed it to just to hopefully save lives is

18   all I was thinking, saving lives.  To tell you the truth, at

19   that point in time that's the only reason I grabbed the .22.

20   Otherwise, it would have sat right there if the truck was

21   locked up, but the kid smashed the windows out and was  

22   running around the thing trying to grab anything he could

23   and any leverage he could over everybody.  He was ready to

24   take on 25 people at one time, you know, not obviously --

25   he's raged out.

 1          So then all’s I know is I'm back here and I heard a

 2   shot, and then people are screaming out, we started calling

 3   911.  Kyle's, like, oh -- he didn't know what to do.  I'm,

 4   like, what the fuck did you just do, you know?  This --

 5   what's going on?  He's, like, I didn't know -- the kid was

 6   trying to swing the axe, trying to swing an axe at me and

 7   wouldn't stop.  This is when we called 911 and --

 8      Q.   Um, so when you fire, Vinnie's chasing Kyle?

 9      A.   No.  He came around the --

10      Q.   He came around the front of the truck?

11      A.   I'm saying I was on the front of the truck.  I had

12   just grabbed the gun and I came back this way and he started

13   coming around this way.

14      Q.   Okay.

15      A.   That's when I thought, he's coming after me, he's

16   coming after me, you know what I mean?

17      Q.   Did you shoot --

18      A.   So I'm recessing and I just go like this, "boom."

19      Q.   So you're backpedaling?  

20      A.   Backpedaling, yeah.  I'm backpedaling, and I shoot,

21   and I just go back to the truck.  You know, at this point in

22   time I'm backpedaling towards the truck.  I didn't even want

23   to be in the situation.  I'm just trying to get out of the

24   situation.  Like I told you, I don't even know who this kid

25   is.

 1      Q.   Right.

 2      A.   I don't even know -- I'm just trying to -- I was

 3   just trying to get my buddy out of being scared, that's all

 4   I was trying to do, not trying to go there and start any

 5   fights.  They told me to go down to the softball field and

 6   they were going to talk to this kid, not do -- not what

 7   happened is all I'm saying, you know.

 8      Q.   Um --

 9      A.   I was scared for my own life at the point in time

10   where he came around the corner with a frickin' -- swinging

11   a maul at everything.  That's why I grabbed that gun and

12   started (inaudible), and that's why I just shot in the

13   ground.  And then I had nothing to do with it.  I put the

14   gun down and I was, like, you know, and Kyle was still

15   engaging with him at this point in time and they were

16   drawing back and forth.  He, I'm from Boston, I don't --

17      Q.   Um, --

18      A.   I'm trying to remember everything I can.

19      Q.   Yeah, I know.  I know.  It sounds like it was a big

20   cluster and it happened fast.  How far in front of you do

21   you think you shot into the ground?

22      A.   Not far.  It was right in front of me.

23      Q.   I mean, would you have come close to shooting your

24   own foot or --

25      A.   No.  I was probably from here to -- I was probably

 1   five or six feet away.  It was like that, right into the --

 2      Q.   Okay.

 3      A.   He was probably 20 yards from me --

 4      Q.   Okay.

 5      A.   -- at this point in time.  But he was running, you

 6   know, towards me.  And I just -- I was back here.  I told

 7   you I shot right there.  He was, like, right here or

 8   whatever and he kept going around.  He was flying.  Kept

 9   going.  I had nothing -- I didn't touch the kid.  I just

10   shot into the ground hoping it would defer him away from

11   running from my area.  That's the only reason I shot.  I

12   wasn't trying to shoot anywhere -- anywhere close to him.  

13   You see what I'm saying?

14      Q.   Yup.

15      A.   I wasn't shooting in his area.  I was shooting at

16   the ground trying to just scare him.  Like, I would be

17   scared if anybody shot a shot.  I'd run the fuckin' other

18   way.

19      Q.   Right.  So you figure five, six feet, is that what

20   you said, you shot in front of you?

21      A.   From away from me, yeah.

22      Q.   And Vinnie was about, what would you say, 15 to 20

23   yards away?

24      A.   Yeah.

25      Q.   At the time you -- at the time --

 1      A.   I can't really measure the distance is what I'm

 2   saying.

 3      Q.   No, I know.

 4      A.   Yeah, he was probably 20 or 30 yards.

 5      Q.   Well, were you concerned that the bullet would have

 6   hit Vinnie?

 7      A.   No.

 8      Q.   Okay.

 9      A.   I knew it wasn't going to hit Vinnie.  I didn't want

10   to shoot Vinnie.  I didn't want to shoot anybody.  I was

11   trying to simply put the noise into action and tell him --

12   and hopefully he didn't -- which he did.  He kept going

13   around the truck towards my brother still trying to get him.

14   That's the point.  He didn't think we were going to do

15   anything.

16      Q.   Right.

17      A.   That's why.

18      Q.   Yeah.

19      A.   We shot into the ground and he just still thought

20   that -- said, I'm from Boston.  I've been stabbed.

21      Q.   Right.  So when you shoot the warning shot, what's

22   your goal?  What do you hope happens when that happens?

23      A.   I told ya, I'm hoping he doesn't come towards me and

24   try to rifle me with his axe, that's all I was trying to do

25   is defer him away from running towards me because he started

 1   running around the front of the car, and I told you I was at

 2   this front of the car backpedaling, and I thought he was

 3   going to run towards me.  I thought he was going to run and

 4   try and hit me, you know.  He'd already came this whole

 5   distance from the parking lot, which is over here, running

 6   with this bat, then he just barely missed Kyle, smashing

 7   him, then he started running around trying to smash

 8   everybody that was around.  I didn't even know who this kid

 9   is.

10      Q.   I know.

11      A.   Like I said, I just grabbed --

12      Q.   So after you shoot the .22, what do you do with the

13   gun?  

14      A.   Put it in this.  I set it on this other -- this

15   green truck that's in front of the tent, and I'm back at the

16   tent with everybody else.

17      Q.   You put it -- is it in the bed, on the --

18      A.   Yeah, yeah.

19      Q.   -- on the hood?

20      A.   Like, yeah, I think there's a tool box or there's a

21   bed.  I don't even know where that gun is.  Somebody said

22   that it got back in the truck after that.  I have no idea.  

23   I have no idea what happened to this gun after this point in

24   time.  I put it on there and I recessed.  I was done.

25      Q.   So you think it was in the bed or on the tool box?

 1      A.   Yeah, yeah.

 2      Q.   Where you left it?

 3      A.   In the back of this truck.  Not -- it was in the

 4   back of this truck somewhere.  All’s I knew is it was out of

 5   the way from this kid to grab it and that's all I cared

 6   about.

 7      Q.   And after you put it down, where do you go?

 8      A.   I was just back in the tent area --

 9      Q.   Okay.

10      A.   -- talking.  I mean, everybody was back here freaked

11   out.

12      Q.   Okay.  So after --

13      A.   And then, I don't know, I just heard running and

14   then a shot and then that's all I heard.  I was back -- I

15   was back in the tent.  I didn't even -- I really didn't even

16   see where he got shot or what happened.  I was running away.  

17   I was scared.  And you get in that situation, it's not like

18   you want to try to be a tough guy, I didn't feel like.  I

19   didn't want to be a tough guy, you know.

20      Q.   So after you shoot, you put the gun --

21      A.   Down in the truck.

22      Q.   -- down and you back up into the tent with other

23   people?  Was there other people still there?

24      A.   Yeah.  There was -- yeah, other people were back

25   against the fence and stuff, you know, which is, like, 50

 1   yards at least from where Kyle's truck was, you know.

 2      Q.   Do you see Kyle fire another shot?

 3      A.   I didn't.  I just heard it.  I just heard "boom."  I

 4   was scared, honestly, like I keep telling you, I was scared

 5   for my own safety's sake at that point in time.  I just

 6   wanted -- I just tried to get the gun and backpedal, then he

 7   started running towards me so I shot into the ground,

 8   dropped the gun and ran back.  I just started running back

 9   towards the fence.  I was back towards the fence, you know,

10   trying to just get out of the situation, you know, just

11   trying to leave.  That was all I wanted to do at that point

12   in time.  That was all my goal was was just to get out of

13   there.  I didn't even want to be there in the first place.  

14   I didn't even want to pull down there.  I didn't even -- I

15   didn't even know who this kid was, officer.  I didn't even

16   know why we were even into this --

17      Q.   No, yeah.  Yeah.

18      A.   -- situation in the first place.

19      Q.   I understand that.

20      A.   It was like --

21      Q.   So you don't hear Kyle shoot the last shot –- well,

22   you hear it?

23      A.   No, I hear it.  I didn't see him.

24      Q.   That's what I meant.  You didn't see it.

25      A.   I'm saying this kid ran around and Kyle ran around

 1   like this.  What happened was I think this kid ran around, I

 2   ran back, and I think Kyle ran around this way.  I think the

 3   kid ran back this way, and then I think he started to come

 4   after Kyle again, and then that's when -- I mean that's -- I

 5   was trying to retreat, and I can't tell you exactly what

 6   happened from that point on.

 7      Q.   Counting the gun you had and the gun Kyle had, how

 8   many shots did you hear fired?  

 9      A.   I don't know.

10      Q.   Well, did you shoot more than once?

11      A.   I don't think so.  It was a semiautomatic,

12   semiautomatic gun, but I think I shot once.

13      Q.   Okay.  Are you sure you shot once or --

14      A.   I'm pretty -- I'm --

15      Q.   I mean, I don't know.  I wasn't there.  So I'm just

16   -- I'm just trying to get you to count how many shots you

17   remember hearing or how many you shot or how many you heard

18   Kyle shoot.

19          When you took the gun out of the truck, did you have

20   to load it?

21      A.   Yeah.  I mean, I just -- I just pulled the thing

22   back.

23      Q.   The bolt?

24      A.   Yeah -- not the bolt.  It's a semiautomatic.  You

25   pull it back and --

 1      Q.   Well, yeah, I call it the bolt.

 2      A.   Yeah, the bolt, yeah.

 3      Q.   So the -- was it a clip magazine or is it a tube

 4   magazine?  What kind of a gun is it, what brand?

 5      A.   Just load it in the tube, you know.

 6      Q.   So it's probably a Marlin?  

 7      A.   Yup, Marlin.  There was just -- there was, like, I

 8   don't know, I don't know how many -- I don't know.  They had

 9   the gun earlier he was with it, he carries one with him

10   usually, --

11      Q.   Okay.

12      A.   -- you know what I'm saying, in the rifle rack.  

13   He's a hunter.

14      Q.   He Kyle or Jerry?

15      A.   Kyle.

16      Q.   Okay.

17      A.   This is his truck we're in.

18      Q.   Okay.  So that was Kyle's .22?

19      A.   Kyle's .22.

20      Q.   Kyle's rifle?

21      A.   Yeah.

22      Q.   Or his other -- what was the other rifle?

23      A.   Just a high powered rifle.

24      Q.   Do you know what caliber?

25      A.   I don't know.  I think it was an aught six or

 1   something.

 2      Q.   Okay.  So that would be much louder than the

 3   rimfire?

 4      A.   Yeah, yeah, exactly.  

 5      Q.   How many shots do you recall Kyle shooting?

 6      A.   I think two, officer.  I don't remember.  I'm pretty

 7   sure I shot -- I shot one.  I don't honestly -- I was just

 8   running back, and I shot once into the ground or -- it's

 9   honestly such a big blur right now that I can't even tell

10   you how fast this shit went.

11      Q.   So you think you only --

12      A.   Seems like there was three or four shots, seems like

13   there was four shots, but I only thought I shot once and he

14   thought twice is what I thought, but that's only three

15   shots.

16      Q.   Right.

17      A.   So, I mean, --

18      Q.   Well, do you think you may have shot more than once?

19      A.   I don't think I did.  I'm saying it's a

20   semiautomatic and you're pointing it towards the ground.  If

21   you went "poom, poom."  Trying to think if that's what

22   happened or not.  I'm trying to go back to that situation

23   and think.

24      Q.   Well, take your time.  I'm not rushing you to come

25   up with an answer.

 1      A.   I think -- all I'm saying is I think I shot one

 2   time.

 3      Q.   Okay.

 4      A.   Is what I think.

 5      Q.   Okay.  

 6      A.   But I know that I was pointing towards the ground

 7   way before him, and I know that I didn't even aim the gun at

 8   him.

 9      Q.   So you think you only shot once?

10      A.   I mean, I think he shot twice.

11      Q.   But are you saying if you -- I'm sorry.

12      A.   I think he shot twice and I think I shot once.

13      Q.   Okay.  Did you ever point the .22 at this Vinnie

14   guy?

15      A.   No.

16      Q.   Did you point it at anybody there?

17      A.   No.  Why would I do that, officer?

18      Q.   I'm just asking just so I can say I asked it and,

19   you know, --

20      A.   No, I definitely did not.

21      Q.   -- so later --

22      A.   I definitely would not.

23      Q.   If somebody --

24      A.   That's one question that makes me a little --

25   obviously not.  I was trying to defuse the situation by

 1   getting the gun.  I mean, like I said, the door was open in

 2   between the gun and everybody.  What happens if he just

 3   decides to grab this gun out of the car and it's sitting

 4   there?

 5      Q.   I understand that.  

 6      A.   Then all of a sudden you've got some mad man with a

 7   gun and everybody there being, like, oh, oh, and here's this

 8   kid's just got a gun saying he wanted to kill Gibb and

 9   everybody else that was there.  That's why I was, like, this

10   ain't good.  He's running around the car and there's a gun

11   still in there.  What happens if -- that's what I'm saying.

12   I mean, I thought -- I think that was a pretty smart thing

13   to do at the time.  I would think anybody else would grab

14   and do the same thing, you know, and trying to get the gun

15   out of the hands of somebody who's going to shoot somebody

16   with it, because I would never, ever, ever point a gun at

17   somebody, let alone shoot somebody.  I'm not saying, you

18   know, well, my brother -- I mean, that has nothing to do

19   with me.  I'm saying I wouldn't.

20      Q.   Well, I understand.

21      A.   It wasn't my situation to begin with.  I just --

22      Q.   Nobody wants to shoot anybody.

23      A.   No.

24      Q.   But that's why I was asking.

25      A.   Somebody feels threatened -- I'm saying I felt

 1   threatened, but I just was trying to run away, not stand up

 2   for myself.  I was just trying to get and run away.

 3      Q.   Look at me.  Listen to what I'm saying though.  This

 4   is why I'm just trying to clear this up for you, okay.  I

 5   know that you told me you shot a warning shot, okay.  But

 6   what I was asking was did you point the gun at him and then

 7   put it down and fire the warning shot?  That's what I'm

 8   saying.  Was it pointed at him at any time --

 9      A.   No.

10      Q.   -- so he could see the threat, holy shit, there's a

11   gun pointed at me, --

12      A.   No.

13      Q.   -- and then you shoot into the ground?

14      A.   No, I didn't.

15      Q.   So it was always pointed at the ground?

16      A.   Yeah.  Yeah.  I was backpedaling.  I never pointed

17   the gun at that kid at all.

18      Q.   Okay.

19      A.   Because it's simply that I -- like I told you, I

20   don't believe in that.

21      Q.   Is there any way a bullet from the .22 that you

22   shot, any way a .22 round could have hit him?

23      A.   No.

24      Q.   Was the -- I mean, was your muzzle anywhere near

25   him --

 1      A.   No.  

 2      Q.   -- that would have hit him?

 3      A.   No.

 4      Q.   Okay.

 5      A.   I mean, I don't -- that's the thing I don't

 6   understand.  Obviously they can tell what hit somebody,

 7   right?

 8      Q.   Oh, yeah.  Yeah.  I don't know if that's been done.

 9      A.   Well, yeah, obviously.

10      Q.   I mean, it will be done, I would presume.

11      A.   Yeah, I'm just saying --

12      Q.   It hasn't.  That's why I'm just asking you.  Is

13   there any way a .22 from that rifle would have hit that

14   Vinnie guy?

15      A.   Un-un.

16      Q.   No way?

17      A.   No way.

18      Q.   Okay.  That's fine.  That's just so we both know

19   that we've covered that.

20      A.   No way.  Because I shot, like I said, five feet

21   before me, not -- you see where he -- did you see where he

22   was -- this was -- he got shot back here.  He came around,

23   you know what I mean, he was shot back here.  He came around

24   this way.  I shot my shots into the ground right here.  So

25   obviously he was, you know, had no impact.  He was still

 1   trying to get after Kyle, --

 2      Q.   Was he -- was he --

 3      A.   -- which is over here.

 4      Q.   Was there a clear path of sight between you and him

 5   when you fired, or was he on the other side of the truck?

 6   You know what I'm saying?  Was there a barrier in between

 7   you guys when your gun went off?

 8      A.   I'm back here -- I'm back here.  No, there's just 30

 9   yards, like I told you.  There's not, like, a -- he was

10   around the fender.  He just barely came around the fender.

11      Q.   So it was a clear, --

12      A.   Yeah.

13      Q.   -- nothing obstructing?

14      A.   No.  Just I'm talking 30 yards worth of grass.

15      Q.   Right, okay.

16      A.   And in order to hit him, I would have been pointing

17   at him.  I wasn't.  I was backpedaling towards the truck

18   trying to get out of the situation is all I was trying to

19   do.

20      Q.   So you're back in the crowd when Kyle's gun goes

21   off?

22      A.   Yeah, I guess.

23      Q.   What -- what's everybody saying?  I mean, what's

24   going on?  I know it's crazy.  

25      A.   Everybody's freaked out, sir.  I can't explain to

 1   you the situation, I really cannot.

 2      Q.   Yeah.

 3      A.   I just can't.  I can't sit here and tell you that

 4   I've been there and I know I can't -- I can't tell you.

 5   Obviously, like I told you, I'd been working all day.  I

 6   never expected this in a million years.  I can't explain to

 7   you.  I'm back in the crowd at this point in time.  I'm just

 8   happy to be out of the way.

 9      Q.   Yeah.

10      A.   Happy to be out of there.  And then I heard that

11   shot, and then I was scared for -- I didn't know what the

12   hell happened.  So everybody was looking around and the kid

13   was on the ground going like this --

14      Q.   Did you see him fall on the ground?

15      A.   No.  I just --

16      Q.   From where you were?

17      A.   No.  He was just on the -- I looked -- I heard the

18   shot, and I went around this side of the tent.  Obviously

19   there was some stuff obstructing from this side, so I went

20   over to this side, and everybody could just see him just

21   laying there, and that's when we all called -- people called

22   and let everybody know.  And I just stayed there.  Didn't

23   try to run, didn't try to go anywhere, didn't try to move.  

24   I just was, like, it will be best if I just sit here and try

25   to explain what happened because I knew that I didn't feel

 1   like I was at -- you know, I was scared for my life.  I just

 2   don't understand what person is supposed to do if somebody

 3   like that is coming after them with a bat like that.  What

 4   do you do?  What do you do?

 5      Q.   You said you didn't see Vinnie fall, but did you say

 6   you moved -- it sounded like you said you moved your

 7   position in the tent, and then you were able to see him on

 8   the ground?

 9      A.   No.  Yeah, yeah.  Well, I was back this way and

10   after I -- I mean, after I heard the shot, everybody came

11   over to see what was going --

12      Q.   Right, okay.

13      A.   –- like, what happened.  So, you know, --

14      Q.   What happened then?

15      A.   Nothing.  Like I told you, people called the cops.

16   The kid was laying there.  People were freaked out.

17   Everybody was freaked out.  Everybody didn't know what to

18   do.

19      Q.   Did you have a phone?  I mean, did you call 911  

20   or --

21      A.   I don't have a phone.  I don't have a cell phone.  I

22   don't have any phones, --

23      Q.   That's right.  

24      A.   -- otherwise I would have.

25      Q.   That's right.

 1      A.   I don't own a cell phone.  I have nothing.  I was

 2   just trying to -- I just was, like, I'd like to get out of

 3   here, but then I was, like, that's not a very good idea now,

 4   is it?  So plus I'd had a couple beers and I didn't want to

 5   drive out of there and --

 6      Q.   How long a time are we looking at from the time this

 7   starts until the time --

 8      A.   But I never told anybody that this kid 15 minutes

 9   before he met us at the ballpark went up to Mike Gleason's

10   house, which you have his name, who was there the night

11   before when Gibb got knocked out, and like I told you, he

12   was looking for everybody one by one, 15 minutes before he

13   showed up down here he went up to Mike Gleason's house

14   trying to rip him out of the house telling him he was going

15   to fight him.

16      Q.   Who did you hear that from?

17      A.   From this -- from Jordan.  And Jordan was there with

18   Gibb.

19      Q.   At the --

20      A.   At Mike Gleason's, yes, they were there at Mike

21   Gleason's and the kid showed up.

22      Q.   Jordan, Gibb and Mike?  

23      A.   Jordan, Gibb, yup.  And then Mike lives there.  He

24   lives -- you know, this is here.  Mike lives right here.  

25   You know, Main Street comes down, and then you turn into

 1   this ball field down here.

 2      Q.   Okay.

 3      A.   Mike lives right here.  So before he went here, he

 4   went in here and was trying to start a fight with Mike, and

 5   Mike's -- who is a good size kid, Mike's scared of this kid

 6   too.  I mean, he's a big --

 7      Q.   How -- how -- hang on.  How do you know that he was

 8   at Mike's?  Who did you hear that from?

 9      A.   From Jordan and Mike.

10      Q.   And when did you hear that?

11      A.   We talked to Mike.

12      Q.   When?

13      A.   Like, right before we got here.

14      Q.   After this or before this?

15      A.   No, right before we got there.

16      Q.   Okay.

17      A.   That's why we knew he was coming down there.  We

18   went down here to talk with him, and he goes, he's coming

19   that way.  He'll be there.

20      Q.   Did you talk to him in person or --  

21      A.   No, Kyle and Jerry talked to Mike, okay?

22      Q.   Yup.

23      A.   Kyle and Jerry talked to Mike.

24      Q.   On the cell phone?

25      A.   On a cell phone.  Kyle and Jerry.

 1      Q.   That's where I was going with the whole thing.

 2      A.   Kyle has a cell phone.  Kyle and Jerry work in

 3   Bondville, Vermont and so does Mike, so they're friends, you

 4   know, they're friends.  And he had just showed up at Mike

 5   Gleason's house trying to beat him up, threatening him with

 6   everything he had.  And Mike said, you know, I don't know --

 7   I had nothing to do with this.  So then he came down to the

 8   ball field.

 9      Q.   So Jordan and Gibb were at Mike's?

10      A.   Yeah, I guess.  That's what I heard.

11      Q.   Yeah.

12      A.   I mean, that's -- Jordan later on told me that she

13   witnessed that.  And Mike had called us and told us that

14   that's what happened, is that he came there, that he was

15   trying to assault him and saying, like I told you, he said

16   he was going to get everybody that was involved and --

17      Q.   So they told you that Vinnie was headed towards the

18   ballpark, is that what you were saying?  

19      A.   Yeah, I guess.  They said --

20      Q.   I know you didn't talk --

21      A.   -- watch out.  He's going to be looking for you guys

22   or something like that.

23      Q.   Yeah.  Yeah.

24      A.   All’s I know is I was going to meet Tim, want to

25   talk to Tim.  That's I all I knew.  So that's the only

 1   reason I pulled down there.  Not to think that anything else

 2   was going to happen, that this stuff was going to happen.

 3      Q.   And that was Jerry's idea to go see Tim, is that --

 4      A.   Well, Jerry and Tim are good friends so --

 5      Q.   Yeah.

 6      A.   So Jerry had talked to Tim or something.

 7      Q.   How much did you have to drink today?  I know you

 8   said that you'd had a couple drinks so you weren't planning

 9   on driving.

10      A.   Yeah.  I had a couple beers there, but Tristan drove

11   down there.

12      Q.   Like, I mean, when did you -- when did you have the

13   first --

14      A.   I got there, I had a couple shots.  I had three

15   shots down there while I was –- like, between the time and

16   that was 20 minutes after we got there.  

17      Q.   "Down there" where though?

18      A.   Down to the ball field.

19      Q.   You had three shots at the ball field?

20      A.   Yup.

21      Q.   Okay.  Did you have any shots or drinks prior to

22   that?

23      A.   No.

24      Q.   From the time you left work today?

25      A.   No.  I hadn't been drinking, no.

 1      Q.   Until you got to the ball field?

 2      A.   Right.

 3      Q.   Three shots?

 4      A.   Three shots.  And then I had another beer.  I had a

 5   beer and a half probably since I was there too.

 6      Q.   Okay.

 7      A.   I had, like, three -- I was driving, then Tristan

 8   started driving.

 9      Q.   Right.

10      A.   So then I started drinking.

11      Q.   Did you have anything after the incident?

12      A.   No.  I had a beer with me going on while the --

13   like, after the incident I cracked a beer, and then the next

14   thing I know the cops are saying, everybody get down, so I

15   just threw my beer and that was that.  I probably had three

16   beers or two beers and three shots altogether within that

17   20-minute period of time.  Not two full beers, but I had

18   cracked two beers.

19      Q.   A beer and a half or --

20      A.   Yeah, I cracked -- I drank a beer and I cracked a

21   second one and I told you I threw it so --

22      Q.   Yeah.

23      A.   On the lawn.  Just dropped it because they said

24   everybody --

25          Can I go to the bathroom, if that's all right?

 1      Q.   Yeah, we'll make that happen, I guess.

 2          Whatever happened to Tristan?  I mean, did you see

 3   any of the guys that you showed up with?  Did you talk with

 4   Jerry after?  Did you talk with Kyle?  Did you talk with

 5   Tristan?

 6      A.   No, I don't know where -- I don't know where they

 7   disappeared to.  I don't know where Tristan disappeared to.

 8   I don't know where Tim Arbuckle disappeared to.  I don't

 9   know, Kyle was just, like, running around freaked out being,

10   like, I don't know what to do.  He was, like, we should get

11   out of here, and I was, like, no, I'm not going anywhere.

12      Q.   Did he try leaving or did he leave?

13      A.   No.  No.  

14      Q.   Okay.  So you told Kyle to stay?

15      A.   No, I didn't tell him anything, officer.  I can't

16   tell you -- I can't tell my brother what to do.  I can't

17   tell him that.  I was freaked out hiding back here, you

18   know.

19      Q.   Right.

20      A.   Kyle was, like, let's get out of here.  And I said,

21   no, because I'm not going to run from -- and, you know, --

22   you know, at that point in time I thought I was just a

23   bystander in this whole thing, that's what I'm telling you.

24   So I was, like, I'm not leaving.  He said, well, we should

25   leave.  I was, like, no, we shouldn't leave, you know, this

 1   is -- all this just happened, I'm not going to leave, you

 2   know.

 3      Q.   Looks bad.

 4      A.   Yeah, yeah, looks bad.

 5      Q.   Yeah.

 6      A.   I mean, I don't know -- I mean, just -- he was just

 7   scared, obviously.  I was scared too.

 8      Q.   Sure.

 9      A.   But I didn't think that, you know, trying to avoid

10   the situation is a good idea.  So I stayed and then -- but I

11   think he may have been walking out -- I don't know.  I think

12   he was up towards the front.  I think --

13      Q.   Okay.  Okay.  No, I'm just asking if you knew.

14      A.   You know, I was back here and they were back here.

15   It was confusing.  I was just fending for myself, doing what

16   I thought was best for myself, not putting -- being, like,

17   oh, well, what's going to happen with everybody else, you

18   know.  I was just freaked out over the whole situation,

19   couldn't even believe it even happened, and I was just

20   trying, you know, --

21      Q.   Did you talk to -- other than other cops or anything

22   like that, after this happened did you talk to anybody?  I

23   know you said you got ahold of a beer.  I mean, did you have

24   to go somewhere to get that, or was it all in the tent,  

25      A.    No, there was beer there.

 1      Q.   -- or did you talk to anybody about what happened?

 2      A.   No.

 3      Q.   Anybody come up to you and ask you questions or --

 4      A.   No, everybody was freaked out.  Everybody wasn't

 5   saying anything besides --

 6      Q.   People start filing out of there quick, I bet?

 7      A.   Some people left.  I don't really -- I don't think

 8   many people left.  I don't -- I don't -- I honestly I don't

 9   know how.  I'm trying to be as honest I can and tell you

10   everything I can, but if I can't tell you something, I'm not

11   going to sit here and try to tell you about what I think --  

12      Q.   No, I don't want you to.

13      A.   I don't.  I don't.  I don't know.  I don’t know.  I

14   was freaked out.

15      Q.   Can you describe the --

16      A.   I ran back --

17      Q.   -- the axe that he had?

18      A.   It just seemed like a double-sided maul, big, like,

19   five-pound sledge.

20      Q.   What color was it?

21      A.   Wood handle, that's all I know.

22      Q.   Just a wooden handle?

23      A.   Just a wooden huge -- a wooden handled maul.

24      Q.   Yeah.

25      A.   Axe or a splitting maul, you know.  It's either a

 1   double-sided maul or it was an axe.  I don't know.  One of

 2   the two.  I wasn't close enough to find out, thank God.

 3      Q.   Yeah.  Anything else you think of that I should

 4   know?

 5          DETECTIVE TROOPER TRUDEAU:  Take a break for a sec,

 6   and then I don't know what I have for follow-up questions.  

 7   I think I'll get you to the bathroom.  I don't know which

 8   bathroom they use here, so just give me a sec to run out and

 9   check with one of the other troopers and we'll come back.  I

10   just want to go over a couple of these points, and then

11   that's it, then we'll get out of here, okay?

12          COREY BOLASKI:  Sure.

13          DETECTIVE TROOPER TRUDEAU:  Fair enough?  Let me

14   just stop my recorder here.

15      (Brief recess)

16      Q.   Okay.  We're back at twenty-three -- just let me

17   thumb through my notes quick just to see if I've got any

18   follow-up questions, all right.

19          So I just want to go over the time line once more,

20   okay?  I think I got it down, but correct me if I'm wrong or

21   add what you got to add, all right.  You get out of work at

22   2:30 today.  You, Jerry, Kyle, go in Kyle's truck scouting

23   for deer season?

24      A.   Yup.  I'd gotten -- got out of work about 2:15,

25   2:30, and we were in Springfield.  Me and my dad went back

 1   to my house.  Kyle and Jerry had been working at my parents'

 2   house, saw them, and they're, like, oh, let's go, you know,

 3   set up some scouting cameras, whatever.  Let's go look for

 4   some deer.  Said, all right.  I've got nothing to do.  I was

 5   going to go perch fishing this afternoon everything else.  

 6   Said, all right.  Sounded like an all right time.  I hadn't

 7   hung out with those guys.  I'd hadn't hung out with my

 8   brother and Jerry in months.

 9      Q.   How old is your brother?

10      A.   He's 24.

11      Q.   So he lives in Springfield?

12      A.   He lives in Chester.  Me and Kyle both live in

13   Chester.  I live in the downstairs apartment with my

14   girlfriend, he lives upstairs, my mom has a business.

15      Q.   Oh, okay.

16      A.   In Chester.

17      Q.   Okay.

18      A.   Across from Squatty’s.

19      Q.   Okay.

20      A.   There's two apartments there.  So we then went back

21   to Chester.  We went out by Popple Dungeon.  We scouted out

22   by that area, Popple Dungeon.  We had no -- I mean, I had

23   briefly heard about all this has happened, and we were just

24   doing that, and then we went back to the house, my place,

25   and it was probably 5:00.

 1      Q.   Uh-huh.

 2      A.   Probably around 5:00 that I went back there and went

 3   and told Jess, my girlfriend, what I was doing.  We were

 4   planning on going to Springfield and going -- because that's

 5   where my dad lives at Walnut Orchard -- I mean, Walnut Hill  

 6   Court, we were going to go up by the apple orchard up there

 7   where we hunt every year and go and look for deer up there

 8   around sunset, that's what we were planning on doing.

 9          I had gotten -- I had just I had just left the place

10   and I was headed up Trebo, took the right towards Trebo

11   right from my house, it's only, like, you know, two, 300

12   yards down the road, that I just probably turned down the

13   road and that's when we got the phone call from Tristan and

14   he was bawling, scared.  So that was probably around  

15   5:30-ish.

16      Q.   Okay.

17      A.   He was scared as hell.  So that's when I turned --

18   Kyle's, like, you got to turn around, he's all scared.  It's

19   like, all right.  Well, I guess we'll go pick him up, and I

20   thought we were just going to bring him up to Springfield

21   and just try to avoid the situation, you know.

22      Q.   Right.  Um, how long from the time you picked

23   Tristan up, you guys picked Tristan up -- where's Tristan

24   live again?  I'm just --

25      A.   He lives --

 1      Q.   He's in Chester?

 2      A.   Yeah.  I was driving at that point in time, then I

 3   went back there to Tristan's and I was, like, well, you

 4   might as well drive, and so he was driving.  

 5      Q.   Okay.  So Tristan was driving Kyle's truck?

 6      A.   Yup.

 7      Q.   Okay.  Was Kyle -- had Kyle been drinking at any

 8   point that you saw?  I mean, I'm asking that because I'm

 9   asking why isn't Kyle driving his own truck?

10      A.   I think -- yeah, I think so earlier on that day I

11   think he was.  I don't know.  Like I said, that wasn't my

12   truck.  I was with my dad, and he was in his truck, then we

13   went back to Chester and we were still in his truck.  We

14   weren't drinking any alcohol at this point in time.  Then I

15   just started to drive it.  I don't even -- I just did.  I

16   don't even know why.  I was, like, can I drive your truck?

17   He's, like, yeah, sure.  Here, here are the keys.

18      Q.   Now, when did your dad come into play?

19      A.   Me and my dad were working together all morning.

20      Q.   Oh, okay.  I didn't realize you worked with your

21   dad.

22      A.   Yeah.

23      Q.   Okay.

24      A.   So I worked for my old man, and my brother and Jerry

25   were back at his house doing landscaping at my dad's house.

 1   You know what I mean?  We were at a different job, and we

 2   came back to get some trash, and Kyle was there with Jerry.  

 3   And they said, oh, we're going to go out and do this, look

 4   for deer.  And I was, like, that sounds good.  I'm going to

 5   take the rest of the day off anyhow at 2:30.  So I went I

 6   just, like, told my dad I'm just going to go with these

 7   guys.

 8      Q.   Yeah.

 9      A.   So that's when we came to Chester and went to Popple

10   Dungeon and went scouting and everything.

11      Q.   Got ya.

12      A.   Then we came back to Chester around 5:00, and we

13   still -- none of us had drank anything by then.

14      Q.   Okay.

15      A.   And then after that we went to the store and went to

16   Tristan's.  And then --

17      Q.   Did you guys get anything to drink at the store?

18      A.   No.  We just -- we had some beers I think I had had

19   at my house and he had had at his house.

20      Q.   Okay.  So did you go back to your house to drink or

21   did you --

22      A.   No.  We just went back to my house after we went

23   Popple Dungeon and grabbed those beers and grabbed -- you

24   know, and then we left and then that was --

25      Q.   Okay.

 1      A.   -- that was when we started drinking.  He started  

 2   drinking, I think, Kyle and Jerry, and Tristan started

 3   driving so -- or later on, a little bit after that point in

 4   time, after we picked him up, he started driving so --

 5      Q.   How long -- excuse me.

 6      A.   That's probably around, like, 6:00 probably by the

 7   time we got ahold of Mike and he had said that this kid had

 8   just been here, you know, --

 9      Q.   Okay.

10      A.   -- and then you're 15 minutes after --

11      Q.   That's where I was going with this.  About 5:00 you

12   talked to Tristan?

13      A.   5:00 then --

14      Q.   About what time do you pick him up?

15      A.   Probably around 5:15-ish, 5:30.

16      Q.   Shortly after?

17      A.   Shortly after.  And then we were just in Chester.

18      Q.   Yeah.

19      A.   I went and got gas, I think, we went and got gas,

20   and we were just right in Chester.  And then we got a phone

21   call from Mike saying that he had just been there at Mike's

22   house, and so that's when -- or Jerry had called him --

23   Jerry -- like I said, Jerry had called Kirby, you know what

24   I mean, somewhere in between there while I was in the store

25   I even said, and said let's meet this kid.  So it was

 1   somewhere in between there.  But they said -- like I told

 2   you, he said that he wanted to meet up with this kid, which

 3   I don't understand why he wanted to meet up with him anyhow

 4   since, you know, --

 5      Q.   Right.  Do you know -- what time did you guys get to

 6   the ball field?  I mean, do you have --

 7      A.   I have no idea.

 8      Q.   I know you don't wear a watch.

 9      A.   Probably around -- like I said, it was probably

10   around six.

11      Q.   Okay.

12      A.   It wasn't very long.  Like I said, it all went down

13   within probably an hour from when I picked Tristan up at

14   5:15.  So we're talking, you know, 6:15-ish.

15      Q.   Oh, wow.

16      A.   Six, 6:15 is when we were at the ball field, I'm

17   pretty sure.  You know, we didn't really do too much.  This

18   kid was driving by Tristan's house.  And then we picked

19   Tristan up, went for a little cruise around, went to the

20   store to get gas, and then it was, like, you know, Jerry was

21   trying to get ahold of this kid and talk to him, then he

22   called --

23      Q.   So did --

24      A.   -- Jerry's phone and talked Kirby.

25      Q.   Jerry -- Jerry called Kirby then?

 1      A.   Yeah.

 2      Q.   Was Jerry on his phone?  Did he borrow your

 3   brother's phone?

 4      A.   Brother Kyle's -- probably Kyle's or -- I know, he

 5   borrowed Tristan's because Tristan had this kid's number, I

 6   guess, from before or something.  I don't know if it was

 7   Kyle's or -- I couldn't tell you the truth, but it was

 8   somebody's cell phone, either Tristan's or Kyle's, because

 9   Jerry don't have a cell phone and I don't have a cell phone.

10   All’s I know is Tristan and Kyle do have cell phones, and

11   Kyle doesn't have Kirby's number, so it had to have come

12   from Tristan's cell phone.  Do you see what I'm saying?  

13   Because Tristan's got the number in there for Kirby and Kyle

14   doesn't.  So in order to get that number, it had to have

15   been dialed from Tristan's cell phone, which Jerry was in

16   the back with Tristan at this point in time when we had

17   first picked him up is what I'm saying.

18      Q.   Right.

19      A.   He's in the back.  Then we went to the store, then

20   Tristan started driving.  Then from that point in time I

21   couldn't tell you --

22      Q.   So Jerry probably used Tristan's phone to call

23   Kirby, is that --

24      A.   Probably, yeah.

25      Q.   -- fair to say?

 1      A.   Probably.  Trying to just ask this kid what his

 2   problem was and tell him to cut it out, you know, tell him

 3   to chill out, you know what I mean?  You know, because he

 4   was driving by, like I said, driving by Tristan's house,

 5   kept driving up and down the road.  So what do you want, you

 6   know.  He said he was going to knock Tristan's teeth into

 7   the back of his skull or something like that, he was going

 8   to beat the shit out of him.  Like I said, this kid's a big

 9   kid so he was scared.  As far as these little details it's,

10   like, I can't sit here and tell you what these little

11   details are because I was --

12      Q.   Well, I'm not asking you for all the details.

13      A.   Well, all I'm saying I can't give you -- I wasn't

14   wearing a watch and I don't have a cell phone.  I can't tell

15   you the exact time.  I'm just going by, you know, time line

16   of what I thought.

17      Q.   Yeah.  No, I told you right from the beginning when

18   we started that I wasn't pressing you to the minute.  I'm

19   just getting you to estimate time.  I don't know what the

20   time line was so, I mean, it sounds like you got a pretty

21   good handle on it.  I mean, it sounds like it wasn't very

22   long from the time you picked Tristan up until this whole

23   thing ended up --

24      A.   No.

25      Q.   -- blowing up at the ballpark.  I mean, based on

 1   what you're telling me, that's what it sounds like.

 2      A.   No, it wasn't long.  I don't know.

 3      Q.   Yeah.  So --

 4      A.   It wasn't long at all.

 5      Q.   I mean, some of the details that I just want to

 6   double check on are, you know, whose phone, who called who,

 7   I mean, that's --

 8      A.   Yeah.

 9      Q.   Yeah.   So, I mean, that's why I'm asking that.

10      A.   I wasn't in the back seat, so I don't know whose

11   phone they were calling on.  You know, I wasn't like, hey,

12   whose phone are you using?  You know, I don't know.  I don't

13   know whose phone they were using.  It's one of the twos who

14   own a phone, which is Kyle and Jerry.

15      Q.   Well, in a way you do know because you know you

16   don't have one.  

17      A.   That's what I'm saying.  It was either one of those

18   two.  50 percent chance it was Kyle's or 50 percent chance

19   it was Tristan's.

20      Q.   See.

21      A.   So one of those two.

22      Q.   So you cut to down to two people instead of four

23   that I had to ask, right?

24      A.   Yeah, right.

25      Q.   Okay.  So see, you did help me.

 1      A.   Sure.

 2      Q.   That's all I'm looking at.

 3      A.   I'm just --

 4      Q.   So --

 5      A.   I honestly just didn't want to get involved in this

 6   situation to begin with tonight.  I told Kyle that.

 7      Q.   I can't imagine you did.

 8      A.   I just was, like, I just -- I need to go to work and

 9   look at me.  Try to work seven days a week to try and pay

10   for everything I have to pay for, try to stay on track and

11   try to not get in trouble, and then it's, like, you do a --

12   I mean, like I said, it was just two stupid decisions to go

13   down there and to have -- to go down there and have a gun,

14   and then this kid, who doesn't even care about people

15   because he just doesn't care, just trying to hurt somebody,

16   and then shit like -- you just don't ever think it's going

17   to happen is my point, you just don't.

18      Q.   No.

19      A.   You don't think anybody is ever going to -- it's

20   ever going to come do that, ever.  I would never -- I

21   wouldn't even ever -- I'd just run the other way.  I

22   wouldn't try to be tough guy and try to -- because it ain't

23   worth it.

24      Q.   Is Jerry a tough guy?

25      A.   No.  He's a smaller kid.  Not -- he just was -- he's

 1   -- I don't know.  He got himself into the mix of it and

 2   wanted to -- I don't know.  It just felt like --

 3      Q.   Was he trying to help?

 4      A.   Tristan was just, like, I don't know what to do.  

 5   I'm scared.  I'm in my own house.  And Jerry was, like,

 6   well, you should call this kid and try to straighten it out

 7   before he shows up at your place with a gun or shows up at

 8   your place.  So he was, like, you should try and figure it

 9   out the night before because he had been driving by earlier,

10   you know what I mean?  He didn't even want to go home.  He

11   didn't even feel safe going home with a locked door because

12   the kid had already shown up the night before at his house

13   and --

14      Q.   Sure.  

15      A.   -- tried to fight him then, then he fought Gibb,

16   then he fought -- slashed Ben's tires, then he went and

17   tried to fight Mike Gleason, then he was driving by

18   Tristan's house.  It's, like, so he was -- you know, it was

19   pretty much -- he just said it.  He's, like, I'm not -- I've

20   never been this uncomfortable, I never have.  I mean, most

21   people in Vermont --

22      Q.   So if I'm not mistaken, of the four of you driving

23   around, Tristan is the only one who knows the guy?

24      A.   Yeah, Tristan's the only one who knows this guy.

25      Q.   Okay.

 1      A.   I just went -- Kyle told me to turn around and he's,

 2   like, let's go pick Tristan up and get him out of the

 3   situation, and I said --

 4      Q.   Let me ask you this.  And I only ask you it because

 5   obviously all these other guys are going to get talked to.  

 6   I mean, there's other detectives talking to these guys.

 7      A.   Oh, yeah.

 8      Q.   So, I mean, I want to make sure those guys aren't

 9   saying something that doesn't mesh up with what you're

10   saying, you know what I mean?  I think you're telling me the

11   truth, okay, but I don't want you to -- I don't want you to

12   cover some details that you don't think I need to know, you  

13   know what I'm saying?

14      A.   I'm not.

15      Q.   Okay.  No, I'm just -- I'm putting that on the

16   table, okay.

17      A.   Okay.

18      Q.   Did anybody say, let's load these guns just in case

19   Vinnie really goes crazy?

20      A.   No.

21      Q.   I mean, because they'll ask the other guys that so

22   this is what I'm saying --

23      A.   Yeah, no, we weren't --

24      Q.   Listen.  Listen to me.  Listen to me.  I don't want

25   -- and I don't know what these other guys will say.  They'll

 1   probably say the same thing as you.  But I don't want Jerry

 2   to say, --

 3      A.   But I don't know.

 4      Q.   -- hey, all four of us said, frick this.  We're

 5   going to load the guns just in case, you know.

 6      A.   Yeah.  But that's what I'm saying.  There wasn't a

 7   group discussion over, okay, we're scared enough to load the

 8   gun.  It wasn't like that.  I had no idea whether this gun

 9   was loaded or not.

10      Q.   That's why I'm asking.  

11      A.   So I have no idea whether this gun was even loaded

12   or not.  So it wasn't, like, oh, yeah, let's try to find him

13   and let's go get these guns.  The guns were already in the

14   truck to begin with.

15      Q.   Well, listen, I know the guns were already in the

16   truck.

17      A.   I know.  But they weren't -- we didn't load 'em up

18   all as a group effort is what I'm saying.  I mean, --

19      Q.   That's what I'm asking.

20      A.   -- I had no idea when I even grabbed that gun

21   whether it was even loaded or not.

22      Q.   That's all I'm asking.

23      A.   I was afraid.

24      Q.   Did you guys decide beforehand to load the guns just

25   in case?

 1      A.   No.

 2      Q.   That's it.  That was it.

 3      A.   I didn't decide to, no, definitely not.

 4      Q.   Okay.  So Jerry ends up talking to Vinnie on the

 5   phone, but sounds like he talks to Tim Arbuckle first?

 6      A.   I don't know.  I don't know if he talked to him

 7   after or before.  I don't know.  He talked to Kirby, talked

 8   to this kid.  This kid hung up on him and said he was going

 9   to kill him.  He was psycho, this kid said.  He said, you

10   know, you're messing with a psycho and he hung up.  And then

11   he called back or something.  I don't know if he called -- I

12   think he called back, and I think that's when what's his

13   name called Tim.  Because everybody in this truck was still

14   scared of this kid, even though there was four of us.

15      Q.   Right.

16      A.   And he was driving around looking for people, and

17   he's a big kid.

18      Q.   Yup.  Yup.

19      A.   I don't know.  People were -- it was just -- so

20   that's why they wanted to get Tim, just as a reinforcement

21   thing.  That's why I think they decided to go down to the

22   ball field because they didn't think anything would ever

23   happen.

24      Q.   Was Tim playing ball or was he --

25      A.   Tim was.  He's on the softball team.

 1      Q.   Okay.

 2      A.   That was playing down there.  That's why --

 3      Q.   So when you guys got there, did you see him?  Did

 4   you talk to him?

 5      A.   Yeah.  We just got out of the truck, went and we

 6   were talking in the tent with people.  Then all of a sudden

 7   this kid was already over there and Tim, this kid and Kyle

 8   and Jerry started walking this way.

 9      Q.   Did, like, Tim have other guys there?  I mean, do

10   you know --

11      A.   Yeah, Tim said, oh, we got --

12      Q.   Tim's got his boys there and said, hang out here and

13   I got my boys and is that --

14      A.   Yeah, yeah.

15      Q.   Am I taking that right?

16      A.   Pretty much.  Yeah, yes, pretty much, yes.  Yeah.

17   Right.

18      Q.   Did you see all these guys?  I mean, when you got

19   there was --

20      A.   It's all on his softball team.

21      Q.   Okay, his softball team, got ya.  All right.  So, I

22   mean, was there conversation about, hey, this guy may show

23   up here or we told him to show up here or --

24      A.   Yeah, Tim knew.  I don't know if everybody there

25   knew, but I'm pretty sure everybody there knew.  I don't

 1   know.  You know, I don't know what was said between Jerry

 2   and Tim, that's what I want to let you know, is I don't know

 3   the fine details because I wasn't on the phone.  And for

 4   half the conversations I wasn't even in the truck.  So I

 5   can't tell you exactly what he said or what was going on is

 6   what I'm saying.  Is they just --

 7      Q.   No, I'm not asking --

 8      A.   –- let’s go down to the ball field and we're going

 9   to meet up with Tim, and I didn't know at that point in time

10   even that they were even going to meet up or we were even

11   going to meet up with this kid.

12      Q.   Right.  But I'm not asking about the phone

13   conversations.  I'm talking about what did you hear when you

14   got to the ball field?

15      A.   I got there and Jerry and Kyle started talking to

16   this kid, started talking to Tim.  They were, like, oh, and

17   a couple other people that were involved.  We were right

18   around everybody.

19      Q.   Yup.

20      A.   Like, this kid up here -- Tristan was there talking

21   with people and Gibb was there, like I said, and Gibb was

22   involved with it before.  So I'm sure there was talk about

23   it.

24      Q.   Only seems obvious that there would have been.

25      A.   I don't know.

 1      Q.   Sounds like that's --

 2      A.   It just like it seems like it was a whole kind of a

 3   partial joke situation, you know, that until he showed up

 4   there and started running at everybody with this, with

 5   stuff, and then it came to the extreme situation where you

 6   either get you killed or -- by a guy with a maul or -- you

 7   know what I mean?  So that's why it just was, like, boom,

 8   like, everything was, like -- I didn't even -- I didn't even

 9   think anything was going to even happen.  I didn't even

10   think a fight was going to happen.  And then it went from a

11   fight not even maybe happening to us being down there to

12   this kid coming -- just running full sprint just, like,

13   smash right as he closed the door, smash, smash, smash.

14      Q.   So just let me go over that part quick, and then I

15   think that's it.  Vinnie gets out of this gray sedan or gray

16   car.  There's two girls in the front of it.  He gets out.

17   You said he had a Taser?

18      A.   Yeah, you could hear it.  It was going "Trrk, crrk."

19   You could hear it from 200 yards away.  You could hear the

20   Taser crackling, everybody could.

21      Q.   Okay.

22      A.   You could hear it.  You could see the spark of it.

23      Q.   Yeah, okay.  That's good.

24      A.   And Jerry was, like, put the Taser down, you pussy.

25   Put the Taser down.  They're, like, put the Taser down.  

 1   Then the kid just went, grabbed this and started running.  

 2   Just running.

 3      Q.   Did you see where the maul came from or --

 4      A.   Yeah, in the seat, in the back seat he had it.

 5      Q.   Okay.

 6      A.   I could see -- I could see enough where I could see

 7   him.  I'm talking I'm 250 yards away, but I could see

 8   enough.  Like, I'm looking, people are looking.  I could see

 9   him, and he was obviously behind the driver's seat, so he

10   was in the back seat, and he did something with the Taser,

11   either put it in his pocket or handed it up front, and then

12   he grabbed that and he started running back towards

13   everybody.

14      Q.   From the time you last saw the Taser, did he ever

15   take it out at any other point?

16      A.   He had it at this car, then he came running with

17   the --

18      Q.   Got ya.

19      A.   -- with the bat.  It never came up again.  He was

20   just swinging that maul.

21      Q.   Yeah.

22      A.   Not the bat, the maul.  That's what it's called.

23      Q.   He didn't have anybody else with him other than

24   those two girls?  He didn't have any guys with him?  

25      A.   Un-un.  He didn't have to.  He was crazy enough as

 1   he is.  He just was crazy.

 2      Q.   So he runs in the direction of you guys?

 3      A.   Yeah, the direction towards the truck.

 4      Q.   Yup.

 5      A.   He's at his vehicle, and he's running towards, you

 6   know, running towards them.  And I think Jerry went or I

 7   went this way, and Jerry went this way, and Kyle was just

 8   back here, like, cutting back -- retreating back towards his

 9   truck, and he was kind of running this way.  And that's when

10   Kyle went up to his door or whatever trying to get into his

11   truck.  This kid was following him as close as he possibly

12   could, running after him.  Kyle was just going to jump in

13   the truck.

14      Q.   Was he walking after him or running after him?

15      A.   Running.

16      Q.   I'm just trying to picture it.

17      A.   He's running.

18      Q.   Yup.

19      A.   He's running full speed.

20      Q.   Yeah.

21      A.   Sprinting with this.  I'm telling you, as soon as

22   Kyle shut the door, the kid started hammering the side of

23   the truck as hard as he could.

24      Q.   Do you think if Kyle didn't get in the truck, do you

25   think he would have hit Kyle, or do you think he was  

 1   going --

 2      A.   Oh, yeah.

 3      Q.   -- towards the truck?

 4      A.   Oh, no, no, he was going towards -- he wasn't --

 5   that's what I'm saying.  He wasn't going towards the

 6   vehicle.  He was going towards -- Kyle was over there with

 7   Jerry, and they were the two instigators with this other

 8   kid, Tim, or whoever the hell this kid was who's on the

 9   softball team, I don't know, he was in a cut-off.  I don't

10   even think it was Tim Arbuckle.  I think it was this other

11   kid that was over there.  And he was just running after them

12   trying to hit them with that, that was it.  And then that's

13   what I'm saying, he knew that was his point in time when

14   Kyle went like this and, you know what I mean, he's trying

15   to open up the handle, and he can't open the handle, and

16   this kid's coming towards him.  He knows that he ain't going

17   to be able to get in, he's going to be able to --

18      Q.   Right.

19      A.   So Kyle says, Unlock the truck.

20      Q.   And you had the keys?

21      A.   And I had the keys at that point in time.  

22      Q.   How did you get the keys?

23      A.   Well, I -- I just got the keys.  I had the keys.  I

24   don't know.  I had the keys.

25      Q.   Okay.  Do you have the keys now?

 1      A.   I don't have the keys now.

 2      Q.   Do you know where they went?

 3      A.   No idea.

 4      Q.   Okay.

 5      A.   No idea.

 6      Q.   So you had 'em in your pocket?

 7      A.   I had them in my hand.

 8      Q.   Okay.

 9      A.   When I recessed.  I don't know where Tristan went.

10   Like I told you, I don't even know where he went.  I don't

11   know.

12      Q.   So you were able to unlock the door?

13      A.   I got out of the truck and I was taking with people.

14      Q.   Yeah.

15      A.   And then they went over there, and then they came

16   running back this way and they were, like, oh, -- Kyle's,

17   like, Unlock the door, unlock the door, because this kid was

18   coming full speed.

19      Q.   So you unlocked the door with the --

20      A.   With the padlock.

21      Q.   -- key fob thing or whatever the hell they call

22   that?

23      A.   Yeah.

24      Q.   Kyle gets in, Vinnie swings –-

25      A.   A half step behind him.

 1      Q.   Yup.  Vinnie swings the axe --

 2      A.   Smash, right through the windshield.

 3      Q.   -- and hits --

 4      A.   Smashes out the windshield, the driver's side

 5   windshield.

 6      Q.   The driver's --

 7      A.   Window.

 8      Q.   Window?

 9      A.   Window.  Smashed right out.  And I think he -- then

10   he hits twice into the door, like, trying to hit, like, in,

11   you know, in through the window, and he hit twice right,

12   like, three -- two or three times right into the -- where

13   the handle is, smashed that in.  Then I think he hit the --

14      Q.   Where are you when you're watching this?

15      A.   I'm back out of the situation, you know, I'm back

16   here.

17      Q.   Okay.

18      A.   That's where I was at the beginning.  I was running

19   away.  I was scared.  Ran away.  I ran away.  I kind of went

20   up here to -- like I kind of recall kind of creep forward to

21   see this kid way over here, then as soon as he started

22   running this way, I started just running back.

23      Q.   Uh-huh.  So when you say you retreat back, are you

24   near the green truck that you end up near later, or are you

25   further back than that?  Or do you even know?

 1      A.   I really don't, no.

 2      Q.   I mean, I'm not holding you to --

 3      A.   I really don't.  I really don't.  Just the whole

 4   situation was -- went by fast.

 5      Q.   Yeah, I know it did.

 6      A.   I don't really know what else I can say to tell you.  

 7   I'm not -- I'm not missing any details.

 8      Q.   Well, no, you've added good details.  That's the

 9   kind of stuff I'm looking for.  Like, you remember the

10   Taser, "kkkt," you make the noise and say you could see it?

11      A.   Yeah.

12      Q.   Those are the details I'm looking for.  Those are

13   good.  Those are good for you to remember stuff like that,

14   okay.  That's important.  If you can remember details like

15   that, that's -- that's what we're looking for.  Like the key

16   fob, you opened the -- you unlocked the doors?  

17      A.   Yeah.

18      Q.   I'm trying to know where were you?  How far from the

19   truck were you when you did it?  Did you throw the keys

20   after you unlocked it and ran?  Did you --

21      A.   I don't know.

22      Q.   You know what I'm saying?

23      A.   I don’t know.  In a situation like that though you

24   don't --

25      Q.   No, I know.

 1      A.   -- it's not like -- you don't know everything.

 2      Q.   I'm just trying to --

 3      A.   I can't tell you where --

 4      Q.   Yeah, but listen, listen, --

 5      A.   I was pretty close --

 6      Q.   Listen, listen.  If I don't ask it, maybe you won't

 7   think to tell me.  But if I ask it, like I asked you several

 8   times about the Taser, and I think I asked you enough times

 9   that you finally said, no, you could hear it, you know.

10      A.   Everybody there could see it and hear it.

11      Q.   Yeah.  Well, you didn't tell me that.

12      A.   He pulled it out and it was going "kkkt," and he had

13   it the night before it and the knife.

14      Q.   That's why it's important.  That if I don't ask you

15   about the keys, maybe you dropped them right near the truck.  

16   Maybe you say you unlock it and you throw 'em and you run

17   the hell.  I don't know.  That's why I'm asking.

18      A.   I don't know.

19      Q.   Maybe you put ‘em in your pocket.  I don't know.

20   That's why I'm asking.  If I don't ask it, I won't get an

21   answer to it.

22      A.   See, I don't know if those guys knew about the whole

23   situation before I even met up with them or what.  I don't

24   know.

25      Q.   Who's "those guys"?

 1      A.   Jerry and Kyle and them.  I don't know whether they

 2   had word of this since night before, whether -- because I'm

 3   pretty sure that they -- last night Tristan had called Kyle

 4   and stuff and let him wind of know what was going on, when

 5   everything went down, as I know there was other people that

 6   were involved in this, and he had pulled a knife out on them

 7   and he was, like, --

 8      Q.   Did you guys ever talk about it while you were

 9   scouting, walking around or --

10      A.   They didn't say anything about it.

11      Q.   Okay.

12      A.   Most of our stuff was done from the truck.  We just

13   took, like, a back road, meandered through up by Popple

14   Dungeon Road and it came out up above the armory in Chester

15   on the Sweet Road or something it came out on.  And then by

16   the time we were done with that, it was, like, couple hours

17   later.  No talk had been done of that.  And like I told you,

18   we went back to the apartment.  I talked to Jess, I talked

19   to my old man, talked to my mom, got the dog, because it was

20   my brother's dog, they had had a dog, and then we left back

21   out and that's when Tristan called immediately --

22      Q.   Uh-huh.

23      A.   -- all bawling so --

24      Q.   So Kyle gets into the driver's seat.  Vinnie is

25   hitting that door?

 1      A.   Yup.

 2      Q.   And I think you said, like, five or six times --

 3      A.   Yeah.

 4      Q.   -- you guess he hit the truck --

 5      A.   Yeah.

 6      Q.   -- anyway?

 7      A.   Yeah.  At least.  And he's trying to --

 8      Q.   Did anybody saying anything about the gun?  Was

 9   that, like, Tristan or Jerry, did somebody yell?

10      A.   Nobody said anything.

11      Q.   Nothing that you --  

12      A.   No.  I don't remember anything.

13      Q.   That's another one of those questions that I ask --

14      A.   Don't remember anything about that.  I don't think

15   anybody said anything about anything.  I think it was just

16   kind of, like, --

17      Q.   Were they in cases or -- you know what I mean?  Do

18   you have soft cases or a gun rack or anything in the truck?

19      A.   Um, I think he had a hard rack that goes in the back

20   windshield.  I don't know if that was on there or not.  But

21   at this point in time I think both of them were in the front

22   by the time we pulled up there.  Like just, you know,

23   sitting down by the arm, you know.

24      Q.   Did you guys take 'em -- you said you did a lot of

25   scouting by driving?

 1      A.   Yeah.

 2      Q.   Did you do any in the woods?

 3      A.   Yeah, we were in the woods and on a class four road.

 4      Q.   No, I mean, like, in the woods walking.

 5      A.   Yeah, no, we were just on --

 6      Q.   Because I know you said you were going to set trail

 7   cameras and stuff.

 8      A.   We were on a logging road, and you'd be surprised

 9   how many deer runs you can see going down through.  

10      Q.   Yeah.  No, I know.

11      A.   So we were just -- we were -- we meandered our way

12   back through.

13      Q.   Well, what I'm getting to is were you guys carrying

14   the guns while you were scouting, or were you just scouting

15   while driving and looking?

16      A.   Well, that's the thing.  We didn't ever actually get

17   out.  We were planning on going back another day in which,

18   yes, we would have carried our guns with us out in the woods

19   just in case but --

20      Q.   So you guys never --

21      A.   We're hunters.  He always has a gun on -- Kyle

22   carries a gun with him all the time just in case.  Not to

23   shoot something, just saying just in case, you never know.

24      Q.   No, I --

25      A.   He scouts all the time.  He's a big hunter.  So he

 1   carries a gun with him.

 2      Q.   That's fine.  I understand that, okay.  I understand

 3   that.  I hunt too.  I always have guns, okay.  But what I

 4   was asking was did you guys get out of the truck and scout

 5   on foot with the gun?

 6      A.   No, we never got out.

 7      Q.   Okay.  

 8      A.   No, I think Kyle got out -- I think Kyle shot some

 9   shots with that .22.

10      Q.   Whereabouts?  I mean, at what?  Did he shoot a

11   couple red squirrels or something?

12      A.   At trees.  No, just at a tree.  He got out and shot

13   a couple shots at the tree or something.  Just shooting,

14   just, like, he shot a couple shots at a tree just for target

15   practice or something.

16      Q.   Okay.

17      A.   That was it.  I mean the other gun wasn't shot at

18   all.

19      Q.   So back to Kyle in the front seat of the truck.  You

20   said he pops out of the passenger side?

21      A.   When?

22      Q.   Huh?

23      A.   When?

24      Q.   This is at the ball field.

25      A.   Yeah, yeah.

 1      Q.   While Vinnie's hitting the door, he comes out the

 2   front driver's -- or the front passenger or rear passenger?

 3      A.   The passenger side, yeah, front passenger side is

 4   the only door you can get out --

 5      Q.   Right.  

 6      A.   -- of the truck.

 7      Q.   Does he get out and he has the gun or not have the

 8   gun?

 9      A.   Yeah, he does have the gun, I think.  I think.  I

10   don't know.  I can't -- I can't -- I can't remember.  I

11   wasn't sitting there just staring at the situation.  I'm

12   pretty -- yeah, obviously he jumped out.  He had the gun.  

13   He was scared.  Obviously he did, what I'm saying, it was

14   obvious.  That's definitely obvious that he definitely had

15   the gun.  He jumped in the truck.  I'm sure he was scared,

16   and he got out with the gun.  So I would say definitely he

17   got out with the gun.

18      Q.   Okay.

19      A.   I didn't see.

20      Q.   Well, listen, --

21      A.   I didn't see.  I heard the shot.  I just was --

22      Q.   That's fine.  I don't want you to answer -- if you

23   don't know, just say I don't know.  I couldn't see from

24   where I was.

25      A.   Uh-huh.

 1      Q.   You know.  If I -- that's why I was asking it.  If

 2   you saw it happen --

 3      A.   It was more scared than trying to be in the

 4   situation is what I'm trying to say.  I was more in the

 5   background state than --

 6      Q.   I believe it.

 7      A.   -- in a, hey, let's fight.  That wasn't me.  I was

 8   just trying to get through the night and go home.  Didn't

 9   want to even be there.  Like I said, that's not like my type

10   of personality to try and get myself into those situations

11   at all.

12      Q.   Well, I think there's a pretty small percentage of

13   the general population who do, and -- and probably most of

14   us don't hang out with those people.

15          Kyle gets out, he's got the rifle.  Does he go to

16   Vinnie's side or does Vinnie come to his side?  What

17   happened?

18      A.   Vinnie's running around the truck after him.

19      Q.   Okay.

20      A.   And he circles -- he probably went around maybe one

21   or two times or whatever, around the vehicle, you know,

22   because he's -- this Vinnie's still pursuing him with the

23   axe.

24      Q.   Right.

25      A.   Whatever it is.  And I'm sure if he had gotten close

 1   enough, he would have swung again and tried, you know,

 2   because he just kept going around and around.  

 3      Q.   Do you see --

 4      A.   Kyle says, Get back.  That's all I remember is he

 5   says, Get back, and he shot a shot into the ground.  And he

 6   kept coming.

 7      Q.   Did you see him shoot into the ground?  Do you

 8   remember what side of the truck he was when the gun went off

 9   or --

10      A.   Don't exactly remember.  They were right around that

11   truck.  They were doing circles around that truck.

12      Q.   Yeah.

13      A.   And whether they were one side or the other, I don't

14   know.  All’s I know is he shot one shot and the other kid

15   just kept coming and coming and coming.  He told him to get

16   back and the kid just kept coming.

17      Q.   So he initially only shot --

18      A.   Once.

19      Q.   -- one time?

20      A.   Yeah.

21      Q.   And then you --

22      A.   I'm pretty sure.  I'm pretty sure, yes.  I don't

23   think he shot twice.

24      Q.   Okay.  So then the doors of the truck are still

25   open, both doors or?  

 1      A.   Yeah, both doors.

 2      Q.   How does the other door get -- how does the driver

 3   door --

 4      A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I'm trying to --

 5      Q.   I know.

 6      A.   I'm not very good at this.  I can't tell you.  One

 7   door was -- definitely this door was open, the one that Kyle

 8   got out, is all I'm saying, and he was on that side.  So I

 9   don't know if I opened that door or it was already open, but

10   I knew the gun was in the middle, and I knew that this door

11   was open.

12      Q.   Okay.

13      A.   And I knew that he was on this side.  So I can't

14   remember whether this door was open or it wasn't.  I knew

15   that he was on this side of it with this door open, the gun

16   was sitting right there, and he could have reached in and

17   grabbed it.  That's all I knew.  That's why I made a

18   decision at that point in time that -- while -- before he

19   grabbed it, I would grab it.

20      Q.   Okay.

21      A.   You know, that's the only reason why I grabbed that  

22   .22, just to get it out of -- if it wasn't there, then I

23   would have never even -- I would have just stayed back  

24   (inaudible).

25      Q.   So you said you grabbed it through the --

 1      A.   The driver's side.

 2      Q.   -- the driver's side?

 3      A.   I don't know if I opened up the door or it was

 4   already open.  I'm trying to remember that right now.  I

 5   can't exactly remember.  I think it was open.  I don't know.

 6      Q.   Okay.

 7      A.   At that point in time I wasn't paying attention to

 8   whether the door was open or not.  I just remember thinking

 9   to myself, you need to get that gun.

10      Q.   So you get your hands on the gun.  Tell me what --

11   in detail tell me again.

12      A.   I just grabbed it, and the gun muzzle was towards

13   the ground.  I grabbed it, pulled back, realized it was

14   loaded.  I ran back from that side of the truck and he came

15   around this way, and I shot once into the ground, I'm pretty

16   sure, and ran back to the truck.  I was within -- you know,

17   I was within this distance.  I was here and I ran up,

18   grabbed it, recessed back, and he came around the front of

19   that truck.  He was right at the nose of this truck, and it

20   was pretty ballsy for me to even run in there.  I thought he

21   was going to run right out there at that point in time.  But

22   it seemed worth it at the time, like I said, just so he

23   didn't get that gun.  Because if he did get that gun, only

24   God knows what would have happened with somebody like that.

25      Q.   How close were you to the -- you said you were near

 1   the bed of the green truck --

 2      A.   Yeah, I was probably --

 3      Q.   -- when you tired fired into the ground?

 4      A.   I ran to the truck.

 5      Q.   Were you near the truck -- I mean, were you next to

 6   the truck when you fired the warning shot?

 7      A.   Next to the green truck.  I was recessing back this

 8   way, and I was -- like I said, I had gotten up and I was

 9   probably 20, 30 yards from Kyle's truck at that point in

10   time when I fired my first shot, you know what I mean?  He

11   came out when I was, like, over here, and I just kept going

12   back.  I mean, he could have probably killed me.  If he saw

13   me when I was going in to grab that, he came running right

14   around that, he probably would have laced me right in the

15   head with that thing, but he didn't.   

16          And then he started coming around, and that's when I

17   shot -- fired a shot, and that's when Kyle sweeped around

18   this way, and that's when I think he came and wrapped around

19   this way.  And I ran back.  And Kyle came around this way,

20   and I think that's when this kid came -- you know what I

21   mean, he started around this way, and Kyle came this way,

22   and that's when I think he finally went back, then I think

23   he started coming at him again.  I don't know.  From that

24   point in time I was just running back, and I had my back

25   towards the situation at that point in time, then I heard

 1   another shot.  That's why I can't tell you where he was or

 2   where -- I was just running back this way.  I'd dropped the

 3   gun.  And he wasn't at this point in time anywhere coming

 4   near that, otherwise I wouldn't have probably -- I wouldn't

 5   have dropped that gun right in that truck, you know what I

 6   mean?  He was at the other side and then I heard "boom."

 7      Q.   I don't know if he answered the question I had or

 8   not.  Were you in between trucks when you fired your shot,

 9   or were you near the green truck where you left the gun?

10      A.   I told you I was near the green truck.

11      Q.   Okay.  That's what I'm just verifying.  I know you

12   were backpedaling.  You said you were backpedaling from

13   Kyle's truck --

14      A.   I wasn't probably right at it.  I was --

15      Q.   -- towards the green truck?

16      A.   I was, yeah, I was close to that.  I was a ways away

17   from Kyle's.  I told you there was probably 30, 40 yards

18   maybe in between Kyle's truck and the green truck.  I was

19   probably 30 yards, 25 yards after I had left the gun, and I

20   was backpedaling.  I was probably 25 yards away from this

21   door.  So if he's over here, you got to figure I'm at least

22   35 yards from him at that point in time, but he was around

23   this way, running this way, like, at me.  And he'd already

24   ran this way about ten seconds later, I think.

25      Q.   Do you think he saw you?

 1      A.   Oh, he knew what was going on.

 2      Q.   He saw you though?

 3      A.   I don't know.  Obviously he saw what was going on.

 4   He was around one side of the vehicle, and saw me come in

 5   and grab the other gun, and then he was still not scared.  I

 6   just backpedaled.

 7      Q.   Well, that's why I --

 8      A.   He saw me grab the gun.  I don't think he was even

 9   worried about it.  I don't think he thought anybody was

10   going to shoot.  I mean, other than that initial shot, I

11   don't think he even thought anything -- like I said, I don't

12   think he thought anybody would ever pull the trigger on him,

13   which I wouldn't, you know.  I don't think he thought that.  

14   That's why -- that's why he kept going after.  I mean, like

15   I said, most people if you think you're going to get shot

16   at, you just stop and you wouldn't keep going being a psycho

17   and trying to hit somebody or something, but he just kept

18   on, not thinking anything would happen.

19      Q.   Well, let me ask you this again.  Did he see you

20   with a gun?

21      A.   I don't know.  Yeah, I think so.  Maybe.  Yes.  I

22   don't know.  I have no idea.

23      Q.   Okay.

24      A.   I don't know what he saw.  How would I tell you what

25   he saw?  This is really hard for me to tell you.  I mean,

 1   I'm trying to help you --

 2      Q.   Well, listen, because when you explain how he comes

 3   around the front of the truck, --

 4      A.   He was on this side right across from me when I

 5   grabbed the gun.

 6      Q.   No, I know that.

 7      A.   I mean, he could have grabbed it.

 8      Q.   Listen, I know he was on the other side of the truck

 9   when you grabbed the gun.  I understand that.  You backpedal

10   towards the green truck.  What I'm asking is when he comes

11   around the front, so he's in the front of the truck now,

12   does he see you and is he coming at you?

13      A.   Yeah, he was --  

14      Q.   Or is he still going around the truck --

15      A.   Yeah.

16      Q.   -- towards where Kyle was?

17      A.   He definitely -- he definitely saw me and he was

18   coming around the front of the truck.  So I would obviously

19   assume he was coming after me.  That's why I assumed he was

20   coming after me.  That's why I ran away.  I wasn't going to

21   stand my ground and be, like, you know -- at the point in

22   time where I was at this point in time and I saw him coming

23   around, I just started running backwards because I wasn't

24   going to stand there and be, like, (inaudible), you know.  I

25   wasn't -- I'm not --

 1      Q.   No, I know.

 2      A.   So that's why -- and then I just ran as fast as I

 3   could, back as fast as I could, turned around and shot into

 4   the ground and then left, and then I was right back here,

 5   and then I was right there at that truck by the time I had

 6   shot.  So then I was right there.  And then my brother came

 7   around.  And then I put the gun down --

 8      Q.   That's all right.

 9      A.   –- and recessed back --

10      Q.   You --

11      A.   -- from that point in time.  I can't tell you what

12   happened from that point in time.  I just did what I thought

13   was best in that situation I was put in.  Not saying it was

14   -- I don't know.  I just did what I thought was right.

15      Q.   Okay.

16      A.   And I tried to do the best thing I could.  I tried

17   not --

18      Q.   That's fine.

19      A.   That's all I can say.

20      Q.   I'm asking you just to do the best you can to

21   remember.  That's all I'm trying to do.  You answered my

22   question there that time.

23      A.   I just -- I mean --

24      Q.   You're doing good.  You're doing good, okay.

25      A.   This is pretty --

 1      Q.   I know it's hard to remember all this.

 2      A.   It’s, like, twelve -- what time is it, like, 1:00 at

 3   night?

 4      Q.   It's only 12:30.  We're getting out of here shortly

 5   and we're just about done.

 6          So you fired a shot into the ground.  Earlier you

 7   said, five, six feet in front of you, one shot?

 8      A.   Yeah, that's what I'm saying.  I'm pretty sure it

 9   was one shot.  It could have been two shots.

10      Q.   Could it have been two shots?  

11      A.   Could have.  Semiautomatics you roll the trigger,

12   it'll squeeze twice, you know.  Could have been two shots.

13      Q.   Let me ask you -- I'll ask it to you this way.  If

14   the gun went off twice, was it while you were pointing it at

15   the ground, or did you shoot one round into the ground and

16   then could it have gone off when you were pointing the gun

17   elsewhere afterwards?

18      A.   No.  See, this is why I'm asking you this.  Is you

19   must have think that I dropped the kid or something like

20   that.

21      Q.   I don't know if you did.  I don't know who shot him.

22   I don't know anything about what gun shot this kid, no idea.

23      A.   I know.  It's pretty simple though that he has a

24   hole in his leg this big.  .22 don't have --

25      Q.   I don't know if he's got any other bullets in him.

 1      A.   Yeah.

 2      Q.   That's why I'm asking.

 3      A.   I know.  I'm just letting you know, I shot into the

 4   ground and that was it.  I didn't point the gun at him.

 5   Pointed the gun at the ground and recessed.

 6      Q.   Okay.

 7      A.   I never pointed -- I never physically pointed the

 8   weapon at this kid at any point in time.  Never pointed the

 9   gun at him, ever.

10      Q.   That's what I was asking.

11      A.   Never.

12      Q.   Okay.

13      A.   I never did.

14      Q.   So if your gun went off --

15      A.   So when I'm positive, then I never shot -- I never

16   shot him because I didn't shoot at him.  I shot at the

17   ground trying to scare him.  I never pointed the gun at him.  

18   I told you, he was far enough where I'm talking 20, 30 yards

19   where I felt comfortable enough to shoot.  And that's why --

20   I mean, he was coming at me, but I didn't know whether --

21   you know, I just shot in the ground, and at that point in

22   time I was just, like, I'll get out of the situation and

23   nothing will happen, you know.  I'll run behind the car or

24   something and I'll keep running around the car, whatever.  

25   I'm just not going to -- as long as he don't have that gun,

 1   he's not shooting at me, I don't care, but I'm not getting

 2   shot.

 3      Q.   All right.  Let me ask this once more then.  Just

 4   let me ask this.  You've answered this.  I just want to make

 5   sure I'm clear on your answer.  You shot once, maybe  

 6   twice --

 7      A.   In the ground.  It could have been --

 8      Q.   I'm not done with the question though.  I'm not done

 9   with the question.  Chill.  Let me just ask the question.

10   And I -- you know what the question's going to be.  Just let

11   me get it out of my mouth.  If the gun went off twice, was

12   it on the ground in front of you?

13      A.   Yeah.

14      Q.   That's it.  That's all I was trying to get out.  You

15   kept cutting me off for the last three minutes.  Okay.  And

16   then you put the gun down on the truck and you take off?

17      A.   Right.

18      Q.   Okay.

19      A.   I know for a fact I didn't point that gun at that

20   kid though because I wouldn't do that.

21      Q.   That's going to be my next question to confirm.  So

22   are you 100 percent positive you didn't shoot this guy?

23      A.   Yes.

24      Q.   Okay.  That's it.

25      A.   100 percent.

 1      Q.   That's where I'm going with this, okay?

 2      A.   Okay.

 3      Q.   Is there any way that we'll find a .22 bullet in

 4   this guy?

 5      A.   No.

 6      Q.   Okay.  That's it.  I wasn't holding the .22, you

 7   were, so that's why I'm asking you these questions.

 8      A.   Yeah, I know.

 9      Q.   If I knew what was going on inside your head and

10   what you remember, I wouldn't have to ask you the questions,

11   right?

12      A.   Exactly.

13      Q.   Okay.  That's why we do it.  You retreat back

14   towards the tent.  You hear another shot; is that correct?

15      A.   Uh-huh.

16      Q.   Just one more?

17      A.   Uh-huh.  I think.  Yes.

18      Q.   Well, it's a --

19      A.   One.

20      Q.   -- aught six.

21      A.   Yeah.

22      Q.   So you'd probably hear it pretty clear.

23      A.   So one -- yes, one more, yes.  One more.

24      Q.   Okay.

25      A.   I'm not counting shots at this point in time.  

 1   That's what I’m trying to say to you.  I think I hear, yes,

 2   one more shot.

 3      Q.   Okay.  So in total you think Kyle shot twice, total?

 4      A.   Uh-huh.  

 5      Q.   And you once but maybe -- maybe a double tap into

 6   the ground, is that --

 7      A.   Yeah, yup.  It very well could have been a double,

 8   but it was into the ground.

 9      Q.   Okay.

10      A.   All’s I know is that my hand was on that trigger and

11   it went being "ba-boom" or "boom" and I ran back.

12      Q.   Okay.

13      A.   I mean, I'm trying to remember right now --

14      Q.   Okay.

15      A.   -- whether -- what happened and whether -- I think

16   there was four shots, I think.  Maybe there was three.  It

17   was three or four.

18      Q.   You mean total shots?

19      A.   Total.

20      Q.   Yeah, okay.  That's -- that's what I'm trying to

21   get, okay.

22      A.   Yeah, I know.  I'm just trying to remember.

23      Q.   I mean, obviously there's a couple main questions

24   that I'm trying to ask you here, you know.  Did you shoot

25   Vinnie intentionally?

 1      A.   Did I?

 2      Q.   Yeah.  

 3      A.   I didn't shoot Vinnie.

 4      Q.   No, I know.  I'm saying did you -- you said there

 5   was no way a bullet would have hit him.

 6      A.   Yeah.

 7      Q.   I'm just reasking that question in a different

 8   manner.  Did you shoot Vinnie?

 9      A.   No.

10      Q.   That's what I'm asking you.

11      A.   Oh, my God.

12      Q.   Okay.  I just want to make sure.  And let me ask you

13   this question.  Prior to getting to the ball field or at the

14   ball field before Vinnie arrived, was there any talk between

15   any of you guys about shooting it?

16      A.   No.

17      Q.   Okay.

18      A.   None of us obviously wanted to shoot Vinnie.  Nobody

19   ever wanted to shoot anybody.

20      Q.   Well, I don't know that unless I ask you.

21      A.   It wasn't -- I mean, --

22      Q.   I mean, I don't want to --

23      A.   -- we're not that type of kids there.  We're not

24   that type of kids where we would ever shoot somebody.

25      Q.   Yeah, but I don't know -- I don't know ya.  So I

 1   don't --

 2      A.   I know you don't.  But I'm saying I'm not that type

 3   of person and I'm telling you right now I can't really --

 4      Q.   But listen, --

 5      A.   I mean, --

 6      Q.   This is what I'm trying to get this info from you

 7   because obviously I'm going to meet with the other

 8   detectives who are talking to Jerry, who are talking to

 9   Kyle, who are talking to Tristan or Tim or whoever the hell

10   else was there.  I don't want to meet with five detectives

11   after this and four of 'em say, bullshit, Corey's wrong.  

12   Corey lied to you because Jerry, Tristan, Kyle, Tim said

13   they all had a conversation about let's load the guns up

14   just in case, you know, stuff like that.  Everything you've

15   told me is the truth?

16      A.   Yeah, we didn't try to load any guns up and try

17   and --

18      Q.   That's what I'm asking.  Was there any conversation

19   about having guns loaded prior to Vinnie showing up in case

20   something went wrong?

21      A.   Not to my acknowledgment is all I'm saying.  I was

22   in and out of the truck though a couple times but --

23      Q.   I'm saying at the ball field.  

24      A.   No, none of us -- I mean, none of us had any

25   intentions -- at least I didn't have any intentions.  I

 1   didn't know whether the gun was loaded is what I'm saying at

 2   this point in time or not, so how would I know whether I'm

 3   going to shoot somebody.  I don't even think the gun's

 4   loaded.  I don't even there was a -- I don’t even think it's

 5   for show. I don't think it's for action, like I said, so I

 6   don't think they're going to shoot anybody.

 7      Q.   Okay.

 8      A.   I don't think they're going to load any guns.  I

 9   don't think this.  I don't know.  I don't know.

10      Q.   But you weren't aware of any of those conversations

11   taking place, you weren't present for --

12      A.   I wasn't aware of anybody saying -- no, I wasn't

13   aware of anything like, oh, we're going to load these guns

14   and shoot Vinnie or we're going to -- we're better to have

15   guns because Vinnie's going to kill us or just --

16      Q.   Did you guys -- I know you said you heard all this

17   about the day before thing, you heard it all from Tristan.

18   Did --

19      A.   Yeah, well, from Gibb and Tristan.

20      Q.   Did you guys have any info, did you know if this guy

21   carried a gun at all?  

22      A.   All they said is --

23      Q.   You said it was a knife --

24      A.   All they said is he came in here the night before

25   with a knife and Taser.

 1      Q.   Uh-huh.  Nobody knew -- how long has he lived in the

 2   area?  I know you said he's from the Boston area but --

 3      A.   I don't even know him.

 4      Q.   Okay.

 5      A.   At all.  I don't know where he lives.  I don't know.

 6   I don't know.

 7      Q.   I know.  You said that.  But I'm just saying do you

 8   know from Tristan?  Have you heard?  Do you have any idea?

 9      A.   No idea.

10      Q.   Okay.

11      A.   Heard he's been staying with Julie.

12      Q.   Uh-huh

13      A.   That's it.  I don't know.  Like I said, before

14   tonight -- today I couldn't -- I don't even know who this

15   kid is.  I didn't even know he was in Springfield.  He's

16   from Boston.  I don't even know.  I don't know him.

17      Q.   Uh-huh.

18      A.   I just went down – all’s I'm saying is by the time I

19   got out of the store, I just went in there because I thought  

20   we were meeting Tim, and I didn't think even this kid was

21   even going to show up, and then --

22      Q.   And then he did.

23      A.   It went to hell after that.

24      Q.   Okay.  Anything else you need to tell me though?

25      A.   No.

 1      Q.   Do you swear that everything you've told me is the

 2   truth?

 3      A.   Yeah, I told you the truth.

 4      Q.   Everything?

 5      A.   Yeah.

 6      Q.   Did you leave anything out purposely?

 7      A.   No, I -- no, I honestly did not.

 8      Q.   I want to say I asked you, all right.

 9      A.   I've been giving you the truth.  This is the same

10   story I told every officer -- it's not the same.  I'm just

11   saying it's the same -- this is the best of my

12   acknowledgment of what happened.

13      Q.   That's all I'm asking, brother, that's all I'm

14   asking, okay.

15      A.   This is the best that I can give ya.  I can't tell

16   you -- I mean, --

17      Q.   All I'm asking is are you lying to me?  

18      A.   No.

19      Q.   Okay.  That's it.  That's it.  I just want to make

20   sure you're telling me the truth, okay.  I told you that --

21   I told you that from the get go.  That's all we're looking

22   for is the truth the best you can remember, okay.

23      A.   Yeah.  I understand.

24      Q.   Corey, this is just a sworn statement, because I

25   didn't have you write out a statement, we just recorded.  

 1   I'm just going to have you sign this, and I'm going to have

 2   you read it all.  This just says that you were -- you did

 3   not lie to me, and look, I'll show you right here, you can

 4   read it, on, and we'll fill in the date and time, we'll fill

 5   in your name, I provided verbal audio recorded statement to

 6   Detective Trooper Daniel Trudeau of the Vermont State Police

 7   of my own free will without any threats or promises made to

 8   me.  I'm also aware that it is a crime, a violation of Title

 9   13, Section 1754 to give false information to a police

10   officer implicating another person or to deflect an

11   investigation from the person or another person.

12          The taped recorded statement is true and accurate to

13   the best of my knowledge, belief, ability, and is attached

14   and incorporated into this sworn statement.  Okay?

15      A.   Uh-huh.  

16      Q.   If I can just have you write your date of birth,

17   your age, print your address.

18      A.   17?

19      Q.   It's 18 right now.  And that's 12:42 p.m. or a.m.,

20   sorry.  That's your name.  Right here I need you to sign and

21   date this.  We're going to get out of here in two seconds,

22   okay.  I'll fill in the case number later.

23          Do you -- do you have phone numbers of any of these

24   people, some of the names you gave me?  Like, do you know

25   Tristan's phone number?

 1      A.   Not off the top of my head, no.  I don't have a cell

 2   phone so it's --

 3      Q.   What about Kyle?

 4      A.   My brother?

 5      Q.   Yup.

 6      A.   His cell phone?  376-3766.

 7      Q.   Does he have a home phone?

 8      A.   That's -- no.

 9      Q.   He just uses his cell?

10      A.   He lives at the apartment where I live.  So he lives

11   upstairs.  He just uses that.  I have a home phone because I

12   can't afford a cell phone.

13      Q.   What about Jerry, do you know --

14      A.   I don't think he has a cell phone and I'm not -- I

15   don't know.  He's just with Kyle all the time.  This is the

16   first time I've hung out with these guys in forever, to tell

17   you truth, and --

18      Q.   And they live right there or does Jer- --

19      A.   Kyle does.  Jerry lives somewhere with his mom in

20   Chester or Londonderry or --

21      Q.   So you don't know?

22      A.   I don't know.  Can't tell you.

23      Q.   Tristan, you don't know.  What about Gibb?

24      A.   Gibb, I'm not sure either one of those cell phones

25   off the top of my head.

 1      Q.   Okay.  I'm -- when I say phone, I mean cell or house

 2   or anything like that.

 3      A.   No, I know --

 4      Q.   If I had to to call 'em.

 5      A.   -- I know that Gibb and -- or Tristan has just a

 6   cell phone and I'm not sure what the number is.

 7      Q.   Okay.  How about Ben?

 8      A.   Ben, not sure.

 9      Q.   Julie?

10      A.   No.

11      Q.   Mike?  

12      A.   Nope.  You can get ahold of my brother.  My brother

13   knows Mike's number.

14      Q.   I know.  You don't have to say --

15      A.   Mike can probably get it for you, but I don't --

16      Q.   We probably got it, you know, but if for some reason

17   somebody forgot to get it or forgot to ask him, I can  

18   say, --  

19      A.   I just can’t remember.

20      Q.   -- you know what, Corey remembered it.  I got it

21   written right here.  That's why I'm asking.

22          Ready to get out of here?  Quarter of at 0044.

23      (Thereupon, the proceedings were concluded)      



 22  Q.     Good afternoon, Mr. Bolaski.  Please state your

 23  full name and spell your last name for the court

 24  reporter?

 25  A.     Okay, my name is Corey Bolaski, C-O-R-E-Y,    


 01  B-O-L-A-S-K-I.

 02  Q.     Now, before we proceed any further, I have to let

 03  you know that you do not have to about here and that

 04  you're remaining here is voluntary?

 05  A.     Um-hum.

 06  Q.     That you do not have to answer any questions, and

 07  that if at a certain point you become uncomfortable with

 08  any answer that you're asked or someone else is asking,

 09  you cannot answer, and you can terminate the question. 

 10  A.     Okay.

 11  Q.     Also, if you need to take a break at any time to

 12  consult with your attorney, we can give you as much time

 13  as you need to do that. 

 14  A.     Okay.

 15  Q.     You also have to understand that anything you say

 16  during this proceeding could be used against you in

 17  criminal court or against another person in criminal

 18  court if that becomes necessary. 

 19  A.     Okay.

 20  Q.     Understood?

 21  A.     Um-hum.

 22  Q.     Just have to bear with me.  I've been so sick

 23  lately, need throat lozenge.  And I just want to make

 24  clear that even though perhaps the main focus of the

 25  grand jury is incident involving your brother Kyle, that


 01  one, to make sure you also know that the grand jury is

 02  considering potential charges against you, as well; you

 03  understand that?

 04  A.     Yep.

 05  Q.     Okay.  So let's talk about August 17, that's

 06  Sunday, the day of this softball tournament?

 07  A.     Yep.

 08  Q.     Where do you wake up that morning?

 09  A.     My apartment in Chester, Vermont.  My mom has a

 10  store there, me and Kyle both have apartments, had

 11  apartments there.  I live downstairs.  I woke up like

 12  seven-thirty that morning, my dad had came, picked me up,

 13  I was going to work with him that day doing some

 14  staining.  So he got me, and we proceeded to Springfield

 15  up by the high school, and I worked with him all that day

 16  until about two-thirty.  Then at two-thirty, we got done

 17  with what we were doing, so we came back to his house,

 18  where Kyle had been working, done some landscaping with

 19  Jerry Ucci.  I got back there, and I talked with those

 20  guys for a little bit, asked them what they were doing,

 21  if they were done working.  They said, yeah, we were done

 22  working, we were thinking about maybe doing some scouting

 23  in Chester, that area.  So I didn't really have much to

 24  do, I wanted to hang out with those guys, so I opted to

 25  go with them.  My dad said you want to go with me, or you


 01  know, hang out with them?  I said I would hang out with

 02  them.  So I got in with them.  It was probably around

 03  three o'clock.  And we proceeded to make our way towards

 04  Chester.  We got into Chester, not sure exactly what time

 05  it was when we got into Chester.  But --

 06  Q.     Let me step you for a quick second.  Whose vehicle

 07  are you in at that point?

 08  A.     We are in my brother's Ford F350.

 09  Q.     Who's driving that vehicle?

 10  A.     My brother.

 11  Q.     And front passenger seat, who's there?

 12  A.     Jerry.

 13  Q.     And where you sit?

 14  A.     I'm in the back.  Passenger seat.

 15  Q.     Any alcohol on board?

 16  A.     No.

 17  Q.     No beers?

 18  A.     Not that I had -- seen -- there didn't appear to

 19  be any at this point in time. 

 20  Q.     If people were drinking beer, actually drinking

 21  beers in the vehicle, that's something you would have

 22  seen?

 23  A.     Right.

 24  Q.     Any other alcoholic beverages other than beer

 25  potentially in the truck in the back seat?


 01  A.     Not at that point in time, no.

 02  Q.     So I interrupted.  You're in Kyle's vehicle. 

 03  You're in Chester.  What are you doing?

 04  A.     We went to Gould's Market, stopped there, I ran

 05  in, grabbed a Pepsi, came back out, and Kyle was talking

 06  to his friend, Ian, also works at Homestead Landscaping,

 07  and he then was talking with him about his, because Ian

 08  lives out on Popple Dungeon Road, his parents own some

 09  land out there, so he started telling us about how it was

 10  a good spot, he'd been seeing some deer out there.  We

 11  never really been out there, so they were talking about,

 12  you know, just Kyle had said he wanted to go out there

 13  and take a look and scout, so then we, Ian said, told us

 14  where he had lived, gave us permission, you know, where

 15  to go in, so everything was all right with that.  And so

 16  we proceeded out that way, that's the thing, I'm not real

 17  exactly sure, at that point in time we were out there,

 18  there was some beer in the truck, so nobody had been

 19  drinking yet, but the, maybe it was like, I think it was

 20  like a twelve-pack or so, it was like half full, but

 21  nobody was drinking at that point in time.  So there must

 22  have, I didn't see any, but later on I had one beer.  We

 23  were out on Popple Dungeon Road in the back seat, I did,

 24  so --

 25  Q.     Okay. 


 01  A.     -- I didn't know where it came from.  But it was

 02  in there.

 03  Q.     Was it just you that had a beer?

 04  A.     Just me, just me, I think, and Jerry might have

 05  had a beer, too, as well.  I didn't see Kyle having

 06  anything.  At all.

 07  Q.     So you're driving Popple Dungeon Road.  Do you get

 08  to that piece of land that you've been talking about

 09  scouting?

 10  A.     Yeah, we just -- can you rephrase? 

 11  Q.     Okay.  So you're, you're driving out this road

 12  toward that piece of land that you had heard was good for

 13  spotting deer, all that sort of stuff?

 14  A.     Right.  We headed out that way, and he told us

 15  where to enter, and it was like a class-four road, I

 16  believe, so we went up and proceeded out that way on a

 17  class-four road like a logging trail, we just meandering

 18  through the woods just headed out looking for deer, you

 19  know.  Looking for deer runs, and that was just about it.

 20  Q.     So are you doing that all from within the vehicle,

 21  are you getting out and --

 22  A.     No, we were doing that all mostly from the

 23  vehicle.  The only time we got out was I got out one time

 24  to take a leak, excuse me, and Kyle had gotten out once

 25  or twice, and that was when he had .22 that he normally


 01  carried with him, and he had gotten out, and he had fired

 02  a couple shots into a knot of a tree, just, checking for

 03  accuracy.  I do remember that.  Other than that, none of

 04  us really got out of truck at all.  It was just like an

 05  hour or so ride slowly through the woods. 

 06  Q.     Now, when Kyle goes out, he checks.22 for

 07  accuracy, then when he's done, he puts the .22 back in

 08  the truck?

 09  A.     Yep.

 10  Q.     And where in the truck does the .22 go?

 11  A.     It was in the back seat.  I was in the back seat,

 12  and it was in the back seat.  I can't remember if it was

 13  under the seat, or if it was in a gun rack that was

 14  behind my head.  I can't remember exactly where it was. 

 15  Q.     Okay. 

 16  A.     But I think it might have been under the seat. 

 17  Not positive so --

 18  Q.     Now, what kind of .22 rifle?

 19  A.     It's a Marlin .22.  It's a, one of ones that you

 20  have like a rod that you take out, and you load in the

 21  shells near the barrel.  They will go, they go down, you

 22  put the road back down, and close it and --

 23  Q.     So let's say you got an unloaded one of these

 24  Marlins, and you want to load it up?

 25  A.     Uh-huh. 


 01  Q.     So you have to unscrew the end of the rod?

 02  A.     Yep, you just, you just turn it, it's like a

 03  little lock, it goes down, and it locks, you can lock it,

 04  pull it up, and then it's got kind of like a muzzle;

 05  loader, it's got a main barrel and secondary barrel, all

 06  the other bullets going into the secondary barrel, and

 07  they just go down, and you pull the rod back down and

 08  lock it.

 09  Q.     Okay.  So just to walk me through it, so you twist

 10  the cap of the rod about half a turn, quarter turn   ?

 11  A.     Just like a quarter turn because a little notch in

 12  the --

 13  Q.     Then you pull the whole rod out?

 14  A.     Yes.

 15  Q.     Then the bullets go in where the rod was?

 16  A.     Yes, there's a little section like the end of the

 17  rod is little section just big enough for .22 shell, you

 18  put the .22 shell, this drops down, drops down.  I

 19  believe it holds fourteen shells.

 20  Q.     And when you're done, you put the rod back in and

 21  tighten it?

 22  A.     This keeps all the .22 shells from falling out,

 23  yeah.

 24  Q.     What do you have to do to actually chamber the

 25  first round?


 01  A.     There's a little pin up by the trigger, pull the

 02  pin back, that puts a cartridge into the, whatever you

 03  call it, it's, you're ready once you pull that back, then

 04  the cartridge goes in, it's ready to be fired.

 05  Q.     Into the chamber? 

 06  A.     Yeah.

 07  Q.     After that time, is semi automatic gun?

 08  A.     Yep.

 09  Q.     So after that first round is chambered, then each

 10  time you pull the trigger, you could fire another round?

 11  A.     Correct.  Correct. 

 12  Q.     So anyway, that's the gun that Kyle checks out on

 13  the knot in the tree?

 14  A.     Yep.

 15  Q.     And then puts back in the back seat?

 16  A.     Right, yep, it was accurate, it was completely a

 17  hundred percent accurate, that's all he was checking to

 18  see if it had been knocked off.  Sometimes travel the

 19  sites get knocked.

 20  Q.     There's scope on it; right?

 21  A.     Scope, yep.

 22  Q.     Now, do you know -- you said Kyle fired how many

 23  shots in the tree?

 24  A.     I'd say two. 

 25  Q.     And the capacity of gun you said believe fourteen


 01  rounds?

 02  A.     I think fourteen and one in the chamber, if, so

 03  fifteen total.

 04  Q.     Fifteen.  Do you know whether, you know for fact

 05  either way whether the gun was empty when Kyle fired the

 06  two shots into the ground?

 07  A.     That's the thing, I have no, zero idea.  I have no

 08  idea how many shells were in it, how many he put in.  I

 09  know he shot twice.  I have no idea whether he put in

 10  two, and that was it, or if he put in more, and later on

 11  that became evident that there was more than two, two

 12  rounds in there.  Later on in my testimony you'll hear

 13  that but --

 14  Q.     I guess we'll get to that part. 

 15  A.     Yeah.  Naturally I had no idea how many were in

 16  it, I had no idea.

 17  Q.     At this point when Kyle is putting the gun, the

 18  .22, back in the back seat after firing into the tree

 19  knot, you don't know either way whether it's loaded or

 20  unloaded?

 21  A.     I have no idea.

 22  Q.     So any which -- everyone back in the truck, you

 23  continue driving.  What happens?

 24  A.     Like I said, probably half hour through the woods

 25  when we finally came out exit point, I was not exactly


 01  sure the name of the road down on Route 11 passed the

 02  armory in Chester, I'm not sure if you're familiar with

 03  that area, but down there, when we came out -- let me

 04  stop.  My mom given us a phone call, my brother's cell

 05  phone, around four o'clock.  She closes early on Sundays,

 06  because she has a business, Simply Country, she had been

 07  watching Kyle's dog, Harley.  He was there.  So she

 08  called at four o'clock, said I'm getting ready to shut

 09  down, you guys need to start making your way back to the

 10  store, we have the dog, you need to take your dog.  We

 11  were like, okay, you know, that's fine.  We got out on

 12  Route 11, took a right headed back coming into the

 13  Chester, got down by Church Street, took a left over

 14  Church Street, headed back to the apartment to meet up

 15  with my mom, got the dog.  We got to the apartment, got

 16  the dog, then I was still of being in the back seat after

 17  of a 350, a little tight cab, I got to be out of here.  I

 18  been bounced around in the back seat, I wanted to get my

 19  own truck, I wanted to drive now because I only had that

 20  one beer, and that was it.  And I went inside, I grabbed,

 21  I had a pint of vodka that I'd been drinking the night

 22  before, and there was probably this much left in the

 23  bottom of it, maybe three or four shots' worth.  I went

 24  in and got that, brought it back out, got in my truck. 

 25  Kyle had gotten Harley, Jerry, myself, and he brought the


 01  .22 in my truck. 

 02               At this point in time, we were going to

 03  head to Springfield, to, up by where my dad lives.  We

 04  hunt there every year.  We were going to go up in that

 05  area, go scouting up there.  I had mentioned I wanted to

 06  go brook fishing, so that was still in the air, maybe

 07  thinking about doing that.  So we left the store, and we

 08  took a right up Tribow Road, headed over to, it's like a,

 09  a back road that heads over to Springfield from Chester. 

 10  We got probably a mile or so up Tribow Road, and the

 11  phone rang, Kyle's cell phone rang, and he picked it up,

 12  it was Tristan Blanchard, and he was just very

 13  distraught, you know, just upset, crying.  We were, like,

 14  what's, what's going on, what's up, Tristan?  He said

 15  there have been this guy that was driving by his house

 16  back and forth and had been following him earlier that

 17  day.  He said he was scared, and he said Gib Bastian had

 18  called me the night before around ten, ten o'clock.  I

 19  went to bed around ten-thirty the night before, but Gib

 20  had he called me, I briefly talked to him, he said he got

 21  punched, he got knocked out.  That's all he said.  That's

 22  all I knew.  I didn't know who did it, or he told me

 23  Vinny, but I didn't know, I never met the guy before, I

 24  didn't know who he was or, you know, anything about him. 

 25               But anyhow, Tristan had mentioned that


 01  this guy Vinny or somebody, you know, I don't know if he

 02  said his name, he mentioned he was driving by, he was all

 03  scared, this and that, so we opted to turn around.  We

 04  said we'll come, you know, pick you up, get you out of

 05  there, because he was worried about he was there with

 06  Michelle and Jordan Ebelt, they was worried about, I

 07  mean, about Vinny coming back to his house, I guess, from

 08  what he was saying, so we're, like, we'll come get you. 

 09  So we turned around, went back down Tribow Road, took a

 10  left, back down Church Street, back into the Chester, and

 11  went to his house.  When I pulled up at his apartment, he

 12  was, like, you know, pacing back and forth like fifty

 13  yards from his house, just pacing back and forth.  So I

 14  pulled up into his little parking area, he came walking,

 15  and Michelle and Jordan were outside, and he was just,

 16  you know, teared out as could be, you know.  Just calm

 17  down, calm down, get in the truck, come with us, we'll

 18  get you out of here, try to calm down, you know, we will

 19  talk to you.  He had talked to Gib, and he told Gib to

 20  come over, so we were going to have Gib and Michelle --

 21  excuse me, Michelle and Jordan go with Gib to get them

 22  out of there, too.  There wasn't enough room in the truck

 23  for all of us to pack in, obviously, to get everybody out

 24  of there.  So we got Tristan in the car, Michelle and

 25  Jordan waited for Gib.  Gib was on his way, so we left. 


 01  I think we did a quick loop.  I took a right by Jiffy

 02  Mart, took a quick loop around Chester, I believe like

 03  just a little circle, and then we headed out, headed out

 04  towards Ludlow, that area.  Not sure what route, what

 05  route is that?  I'm not sure.  But we were headed out

 06  that way.  We took Gassetts, then we took a right by

 07  Gassetts by the old driving range, and we headed into,

 08  towards Springfield.  Well, that was, as I was driving,

 09  Tristan's in the back seat, then he started relaying all

 10  the information that he had about, you know, the Thursday

 11  I guess, if it started Thursday, Friday, he started

 12  relaying to us about the information how he was at home,

 13  sitting at home with Ben, and he said that all of a

 14  sudden he looks over, and there's somebody in his house,

 15  so he was obviously, you know, scared, he told me every-

 16  thing that had happened with that situation.  He said

 17  that somebody, he had stolen something, he just said the

 18  guy wouldn't leave, basically looked, you know, just all

 19  messed up, and just wouldn't leave.  So he, he seemed to

 20  me he just wanted to do anything he could to get this man

 21  out of his house, give him whatever he wanted.  I would

 22  have given him my plasma TV, whatever he wanted, I would

 23  have given to him, I didn't want him in my house.  And he

 24  just showed up.  So, you know, left.  I'm not sure

 25  exactly what happened with this whole situation, but, you


 01  know, he went down Mike Gleason's and got Mike Gleason

 02  and they went to Springfield, whatever, I'm not exactly

 03  sure what happened, but, you know, he was just reliving

 04  all the events, talking to us.  He was scared.  He said,

 05  you know, I never been so scared for myself, I never been

 06  so scared for my girl friend, never felt so worthless,

 07  never felt so less of a man, he says, you know, I never

 08  felt in Vermont like I feel like I need a weapon for

 09  self, you know, but I do, I feel like I need something,

 10  he says I can't sleep, he sales I think the guy's going

 11  to come back tonight because I think he's going to come

 12  back.  He says, really he was, he said he was trying to

 13  get some sort of a weapon from his girl friend's father,

 14  but that hadn't happened, and so I was kind of like, you

 15  need some self-defense, don't you, and well, that's what

 16  he had initiated before is he said he was trying to get a

 17  weapon, and I said, well, you have anything around?  He

 18  said, no, I have nothing, I don't have nothing.  So I had

 19  mentioned that I had had a weapon, a weapon at my

 20  apartment he could borrow, just merely possess for that

 21  night in case Vinny came back that night with a gun, and

 22  he would have something.  That was the only intention

 23  I had.  Was, you know, just to try and help him out

 24  because he was so scared and teared up, like I said, in

 25  the back seat.  Just so I'm --


 01  Q.     So at this point Tristan's sitting in the back

 02  seat of your truck?

 03  A.     Right.  He is in the back seat with the dog just

 04  petting the dog, and he's just, you know, worked up. 

 05  Jerry is also in the back seat.  My brother Kyle is in

 06  the front passenger side, and I'm driving my truck.

 07  Q.     When you transferred the .22 to your truck, where

 08  did it go, under the back seat?

 09  A.     In the back somewhere.

 10  Q.     In the back where?

 11  A.     I'm not exactly sure.  Kyle -- I went inside, when

 12  I came back out, they were in the truck, all right, you

 13  know.

 14  Q.     Okay.  So you're, you're offering Tristan the

 15  opportunity to borrow your gun that you have got back at

 16  your apartment, but no one's offering Kyle's gun just

 17  because it's Kyle's and you don't want to offer it?

 18  A.     Right, right.  I, that has, I don't know why,

 19  Kyle, you want to take the .22 or whatever, I just said I

 20  have --

 21  Q.     Because you're sitting right on top of it?

 22  A.     I don't know, it's Kyle's.  We were going to use

 23  it for scouting earlier, that's why it was in my truck. 

 24  We were just going scouting in Springfield, and he always

 25  brings that .22 with him just in case, you never know,


 01  black bear, whatever, but so I don't know why Kyle didn't

 02  say I have another weapon at my house, if you would like

 03  to have it, that was, you know, whether it was a good

 04  decision or not, it was my thinking that he was so scared

 05  and worried, you know, and he said I need, I want, I need

 06  something, I know I never seen him so scared.  Or anybody

 07  so scared.  Or like especially around here in these

 08  parts, you know, everybody is kind of talks to each other

 09  and everybody knows everybody, and this wasn't your

 10  average situation where, you know, couple of buddies can

 11  protect you or whatever, it wasn't, didn't seem like that

 12  to him at all, obviously, because he was saying he wanted

 13  to move out, and, not comfortable in his own home, and

 14  never felt like less of a man, so --

 15  Q.     Just to back up for a second, because just, we

 16  have some people here who might not be hunters or

 17  relative of hunters.  Scouting, what's that?

 18  A.     Just go out before deer season, you know, try and

 19  spend some time out in the woods before the season to,

 20  you know, just look and see where deer moving through

 21  this area, geez, they are not moving through this area,

 22  they are moving through this area, just to try to narrow

 23  down the entire woods into one spot that you may --

 24  Q.     You're trying too find where you'll be most likely

 25  to see deer during the hunting season later in the year?


 01  A.     Right, yes, looking for grub lines, you know,

 02  scrapes on the trees, you know, just stuff like that.  My

 03  brother is an avid hunter, he lives to hunt and fish.  I

 04  like fishing, as well.  I do hunt, but I'm not nearly as

 05  into it as Kyle is.  You know, if he had his way, he's

 06  spend twenty-four/seven in the woods.  That's how he is,

 07  he just loves it, he lives to hunt and fish so --

 08  Q.     Now why might you bring a firearm with you when

 09  you're going scouting?

 10  Why, why, what's that

 11  Q.     Why would you, a person bring a firearm with them

 12  when they were going scouting?

 13  A.     Because, like I said, this time of year there's a

 14  lot of black bear in the woods, coyotes, black bear, a

 15  lot of black bear having cubs this time of the year. 

 16  We're seeing bear up in my area of where we hunt quite

 17  regularly.  We see black bear, you don't want to be out

 18  in the woods with no protection if a black bear comes

 19  charging you.  I mean, that's --

 20  Q.     Let's talk about that for a second.  There's a

 21  dedicated season for hunting bear?

 22  A.     That's true, yeah.

 23  Q.     Now, I know it wasn't your intent to go hunt that

 24  day, not saying you would. 

 25  A.     Right.


 01  Q.     But a bear, about how big an animal is black bear

 02  on average?

 03  A.     Two-fifty, three hundred pounds, three-fifty.

 04  Q.     Three hundred pounds compared to a deer weighing

 05  about how much?

 06  A.     I guess I don't understand.  Deer, I mean, the

 07  deer range from size between how old they are, I mean --

 08  Q.     Right, right.  But, I mean, if you're saying

 09  ballpark for a black bear, two hundred fifty three

 10  hundred pounds, for the ballpark, for a deer?

 11  A.     A hundred pounds to two hundred pounds, probably

 12  the biggest.

 13  Q.     And --

 14  A.     Dressed.

 15  Q.     What size caliber rifle do we typically use to

 16  hunt deer?

 17  A.     Whatever the individual chooses, anywhere from

 18  probably a two-forty through to bigger, you know, thirty-

 19  ought-six.

 20  Q.     Bigger would be, yeah, 30-06, like your rifle?

 21  A.     Yeah, or tw -- I hunt with a .270.  Kyle uses a

 22  30-08.  Multiple calibers of weapons.

 23  Q.     Now, you needed to take down an animal that's

 24  bigger than deer, maybe two, three times as big, maybe

 25  like a black bear, does it follow that you would want to


 01  use an even larger caliber of rifle?

 02  A.     You might.  But, you know, at the same point in

 03  time, it's not like bear, can, a lot of time with black

 04  bear and stuff like that, once you see them, or once they

 05  see you, if you were to take a .22 and fire off a couple

 06  shots, they'd be scared and they'd run for the most part,

 07  unless they really felt their cubs in danger, in which

 08  they'll charge you.  In the most part, you're mostly

 09  safe.  It was just kind of precautionary to have a .22 in

 10  case, you know.  As to whether that would kill that bear

 11  or not, I don't know.  Maybe, maybe not.  But it was just

 12  a precautionary type thing to more or less, like I said,

 13  if you shoot a couple times, they hear that noise,

 14  they're trained to go the other way, not they're not

 15  coming to you, in most situations, but you never know. 

 16  Q.     Just so I'm understanding the idea in bringing a

 17  .22 while you're scouting, so that if you see a bear or a

 18  coyote, you're going to be able to make some noise and

 19  scare it so it wouldn't threaten you?

 20  A.     (Indicates)

 21  Q.     Okay.  Anyway, I interrupted you.  You were just

 22  finishing up telling us that Tristan brought you fully up

 23  to date and everything that happened, and he was seating

 24  in the back seat?

 25  A.     Yes, yes.


 01  Q.     What's happening from there?

 02  A.     From there, like I said, we headed out toward

 03  Proctorsville way, Gassetts way.  We took a right, we are

 04  coming into Springfield.  He was still just relaying

 05  some, you know, instances about what happened.  We got

 06  into Springfield, I stopped at the Midway Mobile in North

 07  Springfield.  I went to the bathroom.  We got back in the

 08  truck, proceeded into town -- not into town, I took a

 09  left, went up to Cherry Hill, went back a couple job

 10  sites I work at landscaping, been there for three years. 

 11  I got done a couple jobs, I took them up by that area

 12  just to show the guys what I'd done.  We went up, saw

 13  that, headed back, and by the new, the new rec center,

 14  they had just built swimming pool and everything.  From

 15  there we went to T-Birds, the mini mart there and pulled

 16  in there.  I think Kyle went in and got a pack of

 17  cigarettes.  He came out, we just sat there for a little

 18  bit.  That is when, you know, Jerry was in the back seat

 19  with Tristan, and like I said, we just barely got, just

 20  got done talking about it, and Jerry said well, you

 21  know -- Tristan first said I'd like for this all just to

 22  be over, you know, I don't know what to do anymore -- and

 23  Jerry says, well we should try to get ahold of this guy

 24  and try and figure this out, try and, you know, talk

 25  to him and see what's going on, ask him why you keep


 01  following this kid, why you following our friends, just,

 02  you know, just to talk.  That was merely it.

 03  Q.     Now, before you get into what Jerry's about to do,

 04  give us an update on any alcohol consumptions since you

 05  switched trucks?

 06  A.     Since we switched trucks, nothing.  I, I had one

 07  beer, that was it.  And I didn't see Kyle drinking

 08  nothing.  He was a passenger, he wasn't drinking, I

 09  didn't see him drinking, but I knew Jerry had had one or

 10  two, but I don't think they was drinking since we been in

 11  my truck, I don't know if he was or not, he was in the

 12  back seat.  And that's pretty much it.

 13  Q.     Who had possession of that vodka that you'd been

 14  drinking the night before and put in your truck?

 15  A.     I had had it, but I'm pretty sure I put it in the

 16  back seat when I got -- because I didn't have it, wasn't

 17  in the front seat, I wasn't drinking it.  I was drinking,

 18  I had one beer earlier, that was it.  I was waiting until

 19  later until I was going to drink it.  Just a little bit

 20  that was left, that was it, but think it may it been in

 21  the back seat. 

 22  Q.     Okay.  That was all I was looking for.  So now I

 23  interrupted you again.  Tell us, Jerry is about to do

 24  something.  What did he do?

 25  A.     He calls Tristan, his, Kirby's, Kirby Donahue's


 01  cell phone.  Jerry and Kirby went to Green Mountain

 02  together so they kind of know each other.  I think he

 03  calls Kirby, I'm not exactly sure on this stuff, I don't

 04  know, because, I was in the front seat, they were in the

 05  back.  But somehow Jerry gets on the phone with Kirby and

 06  asks to talk to Vinny, and Vinny at first doesn't come to

 07  the phone, but then he does pick up the phone, and Jerry

 08  and Vinny engage in some sort of a conversation, that is

 09  the content of that, not really sure.  I just hear him

 10  talking in the back, you know, asking him what's going

 11  on.  He says Vinny's like, I can hear Vinny saying, you

 12  know, you don't want to me mess with me, or something. 

 13  Q.     So Vinny saying it that loud you could hear it?

 14  A.     I could hear him say that one thing.  I wasn't

 15  listening in, but I did catch that, you know, one thing. 

 16  I heard him saying that because I heard him say, you

 17  know, you don't want to mess with me.  I don't know, they

 18  were just going back and forth, kind of.  And I could

 19  hear him on the phone getting elevated, and then I could

 20  hear him say that.  You know, I didn't know what he was

 21  saying prior, but I heard him say you don't want to mess

 22  with me.  And then him and Jerry kind of got into a

 23  little disagreement, and then Vinny hung up, and then I

 24  think Vinny called back Jerry's phone, and that's when

 25  Jerry -- see, I don't know if Jerry had talked to Tim


 01  Arbuckle initially, he must have, because that was when

 02  Jerry says meet me down the ball field.  Jerry wouldn't

 03  have said meet me down the ball field if he hadn't have

 04  talked to Tim Arbuckle.  Tim is the one that said, you

 05  know, come down to the ball field.  He was down there

 06  playing softball and everything else.  You know, Tim is

 07  a, the tough guy, he's supposed to be a tough, he's a

 08  tough kid.  I guess we're all concerned, I guess.  But I

 09  wasn't talking, so I can't tell you exactly what was

 10  said.  But we said, you know, meet us at, Jerry said meet

 11  me at the ball field.  So then we left T-Birds, and I

 12  started driving through the town of Springfield and went

 13  out Chester Road.  We got most of the way down Chester

 14  Road, and I got behind a very slow moving car,

 15  out-of-state car, very slow moving, and it was an

 16  opportunity to pass, so I passed him, and I looked over

 17  at the woman, and she was just like, like mad at me for

 18  passing her.  I didn't know why.  But I came around the

 19  corner, and then I saw state trooper pull in turnaround,

 20  and then pull back out and went by me, and he just kept

 21  going right by me, so I obviously, I didn't think, you

 22  know, I didn't know if I'd done anything wrong, but I saw

 23  him turning back around, then he drove right by me, then

 24  I saw a lady in the rear-view mirror flashing the lights

 25  trying to get the state cop's attention, so I figured


 01  maybe she tried to pull him over and say this guy is

 02  driving too fast.  I only passed her fifty-five.  It's a

 03  fifty right there, but like I said, she didn't seem very

 04  happy about it.  She was trying to get the state trooper

 05  to pull over.  I kind of got a little worried at that

 06  point in time because Tristan had indicated to me that he

 07  might have a little marijuana with him.  Jerry had a

 08  little marijuana with him, too, so I was, as the driver,

 09  a little teared up and nervous, you know, now Tristan

 10  just told me I have a little bit of pot with me.  I just

 11  passed a car, I didn't know if the state trooper was

 12  coming back or what.  I, I got right into Chester, took

 13  the immediate next right-hand turn on Green Mountain

 14  Turnpike, went down Green Mountain Turnpike, and at this

 15  point in time none of us are even thinking about Vinny or

 16  ballpark, anything.  We're all just, I'm more concerned

 17  about I don't want, you know, have marijuana in my car

 18  when I get pulled over and get in trouble with that, so I

 19  took a right up Crow Hill, which is another road that

 20  kind of runs parallel with Tribow.  It goes over to

 21  Springfield.  So I headed up Crow Hill, got, I think,

 22  almost to the end of Crow Hill, and I asked Tristan if he

 23  would please drive.  I didn't really want to drive any-

 24  more.  I told you I was worried with the marijuana

 25  he had.  It, it was my truck, I just felt maybe be him


 01  driving rather than me driving.  And he said, you know,

 02  that's fine, I'll drive.  So I pulled over, he got in,

 03  Kyle got in the back seat, I got in the front seat of my

 04  truck, obviously not going to sit in the back of my own

 05  truck.  So -- sorry.  So then we proceeded, took, at this

 06  point in time, I said, you know, since we're out here,

 07  Tristan and I, why don't we go to Gib's, Gib's, with

 08  Michelle, Tristan's girl friend, and Jordan Ebelt.  They

 09  had, remember Gib had picked them up earlier when we had

 10  met Tristan.  So, Tristan drove to Gib's house.  We all

 11  got out.  Gib wasn't there, though, so Tristan called

 12  Gib, says where are you?  He says I'm in Chester right

 13  now.  My truck was on E at this point in time, so our

 14  initial idea was to have Gib come meet us there, leave my

 15  truck there, and go with those guys and go hang out with

 16  those guys.  Well, he says, why don't you just meet us in

 17  Chester or something, so Tristan says, all right, let's

 18  just go back into Chester.  And we're there probably, you

 19  know, five, ten minutes, and since we had made the

 20  original, Jerry had made the original phone call at

 21  T-Birds, you know, we've been into Springfield, down the

 22  Chester Road, past the state cop, went on Green Mountain

 23  Turnpike up to Crow Hill, went to Gib's, and then we

 24  proceeded back down Tribow Road headed back towards the

 25  apartments.  We got down Tribow Road, took a left, went


 01  back to my apartment.  That's when I ran inside because

 02  my truck was on E, we were getting out of my truck, you

 03  know, the state cop had seen my truck, I didn't know if

 04  they were looking for it or weren't, but either way, I

 05  just wanted to, you know, park my truck, and we are going

 06  to get in Kyle's truck.  We pulled in there, I remember

 07  asking Tristan, saying, Tristan, do you still want that,

 08  do you still feel you need that, and he, he was, you

 09  know, still upset, and he was kind, to me he indicated

 10  that, yes, he did, he acknowledged to me, he acknowledged

 11  that he did.  So I went inside, got the 30-06, got the

 12  clip, clip had the shells in it.  But I always, I don't

 13  keep the clip in the gun.  I keep the clip in a little

 14  container.  I have the weapon, I have in my closet, I

 15  have two rifles.  So I got the 30-06, got the clip, came

 16  back out, because at this point in time Tristan had

 17  talked to us and said, we all talked, we said they were

 18  going to go back to Tristan's house, have a couple beers,

 19  that's why I say at this point in time we were not even

 20  thinking about going down to the ball field.  We were

 21  worried about other things, and we just, you know, it

 22  wasn't, we weren't concentrating on going down to the

 23  ball field at that point in time, to be perfectly honest

 24  with you. 

 25  Q.     Let me stop you for a second.  About the 30-06, so


 01  You've got the rifle, you've got the clip.  Are there

 02  already rounds in the clip?

 03  A.     Yeah.

 04  Q.     How many rounds in the clip?

 05  A.     I don't know.  It's just, you can't, probably

 06  four. 

 07  Q.     You just see if there's one on top for your --

 08  A.     At least two, because if there's only one, you can

 09  see on.  They off set, you put one in, the other, and the

 10  other, so there was at least two, but I normally keep

 11  four in there.

 12  Q.     Okay. 

 13  A.     Not exactly sure but --

 14  Q.     Any extra rounds come with you like in your

 15  pockets or anything like that?

 16  A.     No.

 17  Q.     Any round that caliber in Kyle's truck already?

 18  A.     Not that I know of.  Not that I know of.  Maybe,

 19  maybe not.  I don't know.

 20  Q.     Okay.  So you got the clip, you got the gun?

 21  A.     Yep.  I come out, and Kyle is getting in, they

 22  were all getting in his truck now.  I see him grab the

 23  .22, put it in the back seat.  I come out, I get in, with

 24  the 30-06.  Kyle then indicates Tristan how to use it,

 25  says it's pretty self-explanatory with this, put the clip


 01  in the bottom of it, pull the pin back, and you're ready. 

 02  He didn't, he didn't pull it, do that, he just, he just

 03  told him.

 04  Q.     Does that happen inside?  Are you all inside the

 05  truck when that was happening?

 06  A.     Right, but he's not, he's not actually physically

 07  doing it.  He's telling him.

 08  Q.     Oh, sure, sure, sure.  So I'm just wondering, so

 09  where's Kyle sitting when this is happening?

 10  A.     He is in the passenger seat.  I had asked, or,

 11  yeah, I had wanted to drive this truck, he just got a new

 12  F350, just barely, only had it couple weeks or so, a

 13  month, maybe.  I wanted to drive his truck.  I still

 14  wasn't drinking or anything.  I had that one beer

 15  earlier.  And so I wanted to drive, you know.  Now that

 16  we were in different vehicle, not sure whether Tristan

 17  still had the marijuana or not, gotten rid of it, threw

 18  it out the window, because I was going to drive.

 19  Q.     So you're in the driver's seat?

 20  A.     Yep, I just gotten in, to the driver's seat, and

 21  we put the 30-06 in the back, the clip went in the glove

 22  box. 

 23  Q.     Who put the clip in the glove box?

 24  A.     Kyle.

 25  Q.     Before or after the demonstration with Tristan how


 01  it works?

 02  A.     That's after.

 03  Q.     So, Kyle does the demonstration.  Is he holding

 04  the 30-06 and the clip?

 05  A.     No, just the clip.  I handed him the clip, he put

 06  it in the glove box, and the 30-06 went to the back seat. 

 07  The .22 at this point in time was in the back seat, but

 08  coming to the front seat, you know, butt end towards the

 09  front seat towards the, you know, you just, could just

 10  barely see it in the front seat.  It was angled up like

 11  that in the middle.  Those guys, because there was one

 12  person in each seat, the rifle was angled up, barrel to

 13  the floor, butt end by the middle console in the middle

 14  of truck so you could barely see it.

 15  Q.     So anyway, now everybody in the truck, Tristan

 16  just got the demonstration, Kyle's put the clip in the

 17  glove box?

 18  A.     Yep.

 19  Q.     What's happening next?

 20  A.     Nothing.  We, Tristan says to us, he says, you

 21  know, if you guys want, I have ten beers at my house left

 22  over from the night before, some Bud Lite.  We were all

 23  defused about the situation from before, we just wanted

 24  to go hang out and drink a couple beers on, you know,

 25  Sunday Night.  We'd been working seven days a week, like


 01  I said, for MJS doing landscaping and working parttime

 02  form my old man, so I work seven days a week.  I wanted

 03  to relax and have a couple beers.  I'm twenty-two years

 04  old.  So Tristan says I got ten beers back at my place,

 05  let's go back there, got Bud Lite, if I want to come back

 06  there.  Yep, it's fine, we headed on Church Street,

 07  headed over to Tristan's.  But I indicated to Tristan and

 08  those guys I didn't want Bud Lite, I like more of a

 09  flavor to a beer, like Budweiser, so I was going to go To

 10  Jiffy Mart.  I pulled into Jiffy Mart, went inside to get

 11  a six-pack.  I was in the store maybe five minutes, not

 12  even, you know, not, just in there five minutes or so. 

 13  As I came out of the store, got in the truck, Kyle was on

 14  the phone with Mike Gleason, apparently.

 15  Q.     Before we get there for a second, you purchased

 16  that six-pack of Budweiser?

 17  A.     Yep.

 18  Q.     Are those cans or bottles?

 19  A.     Bottles.

 20  Q.     Okay.  Go on, continue telling the story about

 21  Mike Gleason. 

 22  A.     All right.  So as I get in the truck, Kyle had

 23  been talking to Mike for a few minutes, and I could just

 24  hear Mike talking real loudly saying what happened, and

 25  Kyle saying, you know, calm down, what's going on?  Mike


 01  was saying how Vinny had showed up down there at Mike's

 02  place where Gib and Michelle and Jordan were and came

 03  inside or knocked on the door and was, you know, hounding

 04  those guys, telling, trying to get Mike to fight

 05  with him.  He told Gib some not very good things, told

 06  Gib that he wanted to kill him and rape his family or

 07  something like that.  And Mike obviously, Mike Gleason is

 08  a very, he's a, I don't know tough guy, saw him, he's a

 09  big guy, you know, of our friends, he's a bigger guy, and

 10  he was just, he was scared to death of this guy, as well,

 11  you know, he didn't want nothing to do with this guy. 

 12  And so from what I understand, Vinny had left, but Mike

 13  said come down this way.  So that's what started, that's

 14  why we weren't, because from Jiffy Mart you take a right

 15  to go to Tristan's, we took a left back down toward the

 16  ball field because Mike lives right across from the ball

 17  field.  Mike was worried, and everybody else, said can

 18  you come down here?  Or not sure exactly what was said,

 19  but Kyle said go that way, so I took a left and headed

 20  down that way.  When we got down, we crossed the bridge,

 21  when I got down to Mike's house, I saw Mike, Adrianne,

 22  and Gib, and Michelle, and Jordan, they were all outside

 23  very concerned looking, and Mike waved us on, I don't

 24  know why, probably because he didn't want Vinny to come

 25  back to his house and see, you know, Kyle's truck there


 01  or whatever.  He didn't want him to come back. 

 02  Q.     As you're driving by Mike's house, you guys have

 03  the windows up or down?

 04  A.     I don't know.  I can't answer that.

 05  Q.     Are you able to talk with him at all?

 06  A.     No.  No, he just was waving us on like this. 

 07  Q.     So you didn't hear him yelling anything at you?

 08  A.     He didn't yell anything.  He just was like, that.

 09  Q.     No one in your vehicle yelled anything at him?

 10  A.     No.

 11  Q.     Okay.  No other noises like that could be

 12  described as hooting and hollering, anything like that?

 13  A.     No.

 14  Q.     Okay.  So he waves you on, you guys keep driving?

 15  A.     Yes, we keep driving, and the next left is the

 16  ball field.  I was originally turning into there to turn

 17  around, turned in there, somebody had said, we'll just

 18  pull down, I think it might have been Jerry, just pull

 19  down to the ball field, let's go talk to Tim.  So that's

 20  what I did, I pulled down there.  As I was pulling down,

 21  Tim was out there.  I rolled down the window.  He just

 22  said, you know, pull the truck up over there, and so

 23  that's what I did, I pulled down as far as I could, got

 24  out, I locked -- we all got out, I locked the truck with

 25  the weapons in it, the dog was in it.  Me, Tristan,


 01  Jerry, Kyle got out.

 02  Q.     How'd you lock the truck?

 03  A.     I don't know.  If I did it with the padlock or if,

 04  Kyle did it, oh, or with the key, the door, or if I did

 05  it.  I'm not exactly sure.

 06  Q.     You know the truck got locked? 

 07  A.     The truck got locked, but I'm pretty sure, you

 08  know, that I, I locked it but --

 09  Q.     Where, where, do you know where the keys are?

 10  A.     They keys were in my pocket.

 11  Q.     Okay.  All right. 

 12  A.     So I got out, with my six-pack.  All the guys, all

 13  the softball guys, they were in the back of the tent

 14  throwing a pink ball off it trying to get it come down

 15  and land in a cup.  That's what they were going for fun. 

 16  I says, gee, that's looks like fun, I went over there and

 17  started talking to those guys.  Casey Brickey, I think,

 18  asked me what was going on, what's going on.  I didn't

 19  really know what was going on other than just minute

 20  information.  I didn't know nothing about this guy or

 21  anything, I just was kind of involved a little bit that

 22  day, I just kind of chucked this off, didn't say anything

 23  to him.  I started to talk to Tim about completely

 24  different, just started talking to other people about

 25  totally different things.  Vinny was nowhere to be found. 


 01  I had learned he had already stopped down there one time

 02  already because originally Jerry said meet me in fifteen

 03  minutes.  Well, fifteen minutes, we end up going all over

 04  the place, so by this time, it was like an hour or so at

 05  least from when we originally talked to him that we were

 06  there, so, that's when I got out with my six-pack, my

 07  little bit of vodka, and I went over to the guys, and I

 08  was talking a little bit.  I drank two beers, and I had

 09  two shots when I was down there at the field.  But I

 10  wasn't, I wasn't even with Kyle or Jerry and Tristan. 

 11  I'm not sure exactly where those guys went.  Like I said,

 12  they were playing that game, and I just said, you know,

 13  I'm going to, went over towards that way.  And so I was

 14  just talking to the other guys.  I can't say where Kyle

 15  or Tristan or any, any of those guys were.  I was just

 16  over with the main group of people, talking with them,

 17  like I said, in that fifteen, twenty-minute period from

 18  when we had gotten there to when the car pulled up with,

 19  Vinny was in, I had the, that to drink. 

 20  Q.     Let me back you up for a second.  Does any other

 21  vehicle arrive close in time to where, when Kyle's Ford

 22  pulls up?

 23  A.     Gib, Michelle, and Jordan had, they were at Mike's

 24  when we went by.  They got in their car and followed us

 25  down, I believe, also, but other than that, that's the


 01  only two vehicles.

 02  Q.     Do you see them park near you?

 03  A.     I didn't see them physical park near us, but

 04  obviously I know where his car was in location to Kyle's

 05  truck during this thing, so he did park, you know, near

 06  Kyle.  I didn't see him park because we got down there,

 07  and they weren't right behind us.  I had gotten out and

 08  went over to the tent area, and then he pulled up, so I

 09  didn't see him physically pull up, no.

 10  Q.     Okay.  But where -- did you learn that Gib's

 11  vehicle was parked relative to Kyle's truck?

 12  A.     When did I learn that? 

 13  Q.     Where, where was it parked when you learned that

 14  it was parked there?

 15  A.     Say again.

 16  Q.     At some point you learned that Gib's vehicle was

 17  parked somewhere near the truck?

 18  A.     Yeah, when this whole Incident happened.

 19  Q.     What --

 20  A.     When the incident unraveled, that's when I

 21  learned.

 22  Q.     Where, relative to the truck, was Gib's car?

 23  A.     It was parallel, if you're, if I'm the tent, I'm

 24  looking at -- there's Kyle's truck and Gib's car,

 25  probably, not sure, they were pretty much parallel.  I'm


 01  not sure if it was a little bit in front or little bit in

 02  back, but it was pretty much parallel.

 03  Q.     Any other vehicles between Gib's vehicle and

 04  Kyle's truck?

 05  A.     I know there was a green truck right by the tent. 

 06  I know there was another vehicle right in front of the

 07  tent.  Then Kyle's truck, Gib's, and then there was

 08  another vehicle outside of Gib's vehicle.

 09  Q.     The one outside of Gib's vehicle, was that, you

 10  remember whether it was a truck, passenger car, SUV?

 11  A.     I'm not sure.  Then there was the mobile home off

 12  in the corner, or RV, up in the corner.

 13               JUROR:  Excuse me, I don't mean to, but I

 14  have to take a restroom break. 

 15               (Recess, 2:06 - 2:22 p.m.)

 16               MR. KELLEY:  What's going to happen is

 17  that we fortunately one of our jurors -- it's odd not

 18  knowing people's names -- will not be able to be here

 19  tomorrow.  She's been formally excused. 

 20               (Off-the-record discussion)

 21               MR. KELLEY:  Thanks, Corey.  Remind you

 22  you're still under oath.  If you'd like me to read the

 23  oath to you again, I could.

 24               THE WITNESS:  I understand fully.

 25               MR. KELLEY:  Thanks for giving us that


 01  moment's break.

 02               THE WITNESS:  No problem.

 03  BY MR. CAHILL: 

 04  Q.     Okay, so I'll give you a chance to get it in your

 05  mouth. 

 06  A.     Get it going, yeah. 

 07                   Thank you.

 08  Q.     So, we're back to the ball field.  Most of the

 09  people you came with are enthralled with the game

 10  throwing the Ping-Pong ball up on the tent and watching

 11  it come down?

 12  A.     Most of people in the softball tournament, they

 13  were all right there.  I got out and I went over there. 

 14  Not sure exactly where the other people that were with me

 15  went.

 16  Q.     Okay. 

 17  A.     Until I see this other car, I didn't exactly see

 18  the car that they were in pull up.  I heard somebody

 19  speculating that they were here, then I saw Tim Arbuckle,

 20  Jerry, and Kyle start to walk that way towards the, you

 21  know, because there was quite a distance between the tent

 22  and then the corner where the two fences met, and then

 23  where his car or Julie's car was, where they had pulled

 24  up was quite some distance, so they started walking up. 

 25  They got probably half way, and then I kind of was like,


 01  you know, maybe I should be up there in case anything

 02  happens, so I started walking up.  And I was behind them. 

 03  It was kind of, you know, staggered.  Tim was in the

 04  front, and Jerry and Kyle, and then I was last, and, you

 05  know, kind of a Diagonal line walking up to the fence. 

 06  As we were walking up there, we got, you know, more up

 07  towards the corner of the fence area, Vinny was out of

 08  car, and he had this Tazer, he was clicking it, clicking

 09  it, and I remember him saying, you know, look how many

 10  there are of you, you F-ing pansies, I could take you all

 11  on, he says, and he's just clicking that Tazer, you know,

 12  just clicking it.  I remember Tim saying, come over here,

 13  I'm shove that up you're ass.  You know.  But, that's

 14  irrelevant.  So, oh, so Tim goes, put it down.  And he

 15  gives the Tazer to Julie.  Julie holds it out the window,

 16  I remember, and she clicks it, and she says, she's got

 17  it, then I remember just him, he's, he just reaches into

 18  the back seat, grabs this splitting maul, pulls it out,

 19  and then just starts in a dead sprint, dead sprint

 20  towards us all.  He has to run straight first to get

 21  around that corner of two fences, you know, fences met

 22  like this, we were up here, and he started running

 23  around.  As he got around that corner, you know, we all

 24  started running back.  As I said, we were in kind of a

 25  diagonal line.  He first started coming through towards


 01  Tim and Jerry's way.  That's where Jordan was, too.  And

 02  he stopped briefly there, and then he started running

 03  towards Kyle.  And then he turned toward me.  He was

 04  running right towards me, and he was, he had the axe up

 05  like this, he was just going arg, arg, arg, arg, arg,

 06  just crazy, like he was just going arg, arg, arg. 

 07  Thought it was funny.  I don't know, it was more of a

 08  crazed funny thing.  I wasn't laughing.  He was pretty

 09  fast, too, this kid was fast, you know.  So I'm pretty

 10  fast, too, but he was running, he was making ground on

 11  us, and we were just retreating back as far as we could,

 12  you know, he was coming at us.  Then he turns from me all

 13  of a sudden, just starts running towards Kyle.  Kyle had

 14  gotten right to the truck, and as I recall, Vinny started

 15  coming toward him.  I looked over, Kyle was trying to

 16  open the door.  It was locked. 

 17  Q.     Going to stop you there for a second.  We'll just

 18  go through everything up to that point.  So he's chasing

 19  after, initially after the group of guys by Tim, Jerry?

 20  A.     Like I was, there was Tim, Jerry, Kyle and myself. 

 21  He was originally to the right of that fence line, like I

 22  said, that runs down like there, you know, the fence is

 23  ninety degrees, and I was closest to the fence.  Then

 24  Kyle, then Jerry, then Tim.  He was originally way out

 25  here to the right.  And then he came this way, you know,


 01  and like I said, he was running towards Kyle.  Then he

 02  was coming towards me.  He was holding the axe like that,

 03  crazed man, and then he started towards Kyle, and I

 04  stopped.  And the truck was here, I'm right here. 

 05  Q.     Let's say, we're going to do this at some point,

 06  so, I'll draw the truck. 

 07  A.     You draw the truck.

 08  Q.     This is going to be the front of the truck. 

 09  A.     Right.

 10  Q.     To indicate the front.  This is not going to be

 11  scale but --

 12  A.     And the fence line runs down this way.

 13  Q.     Okay. 

 14  A.     You know, ninety.  So I stopped here.  He was

 15  running down towards all of us.  At this point in time,

 16  he started towards Kyle.  I ran down here, stopped.  As I

 17  looked over this way, I saw Kyle turn.  He tried to open

 18  the door, which he couldn't, it was locked.

 19  Q.     Hold on for one second.  First you got a big job

 20  here.  You got to talk toward them, and talk towards the

 21  court reporter.  So when we're facing this way, we just

 22  have to slow down a little bit. 

 23  A.     Okay.

 24  Q.     So anyway, so he's chasing you and Kyle in this

 25  direction; right? 


 01  A.     Yes, he's more or less coming straight down here,

 02  and I'm, you know, here.

 03  Q.     So where does your trajectory and Kyle's direction

 04  kind of diverge?

 05  A.     Like I said, Arbuckle was up here, and Jerry and

 06  Kyle and me, and like I said, he was coming at Kyle like

 07  this, and then kind of came over like this, started

 08  running at me.  And then Kyle kept running this way to

 09  his truck.  He's tried to open his door, and he couldn't,

 10  and that's when he, Vinny, went like this.  And I looked

 11  over, I was right here, I looked over, saw Kyle couldn't

 12  open it, and I saw, then saw Kyle slip, he falls to the

 13  ground.  Just as he's getting up, Vinny comes and bangs

 14  the side of this truck.

 15  Q.     Stop there for a second.  Now, so is Vinny, is he

 16  not sure what his target is initially because he focuses

 17  on Kyle, then he looks at you as if like you might be

 18  interesting, then he looks back towards Kyle?

 19  A.     That's the thing, when he comes around that fence,

 20  he's looking at all of us, you know, he's coming at all

 21  of us, more or less, which one of you am I going to

 22  catch.  It seems to me like he wants to catch one of us

 23  to do bodily harm, not just to scare us with the axe.  I

 24  feel he's coming out to hurt us with this axe.  Like I

 25  said, he kind of, he kind of started his way here, then


 01  came this way.  I'm not sure who he was picking out or

 02  why, but we, we, me and Kyle didn't even know him.  I

 03  don't even know what he looks like.  If you had a picture

 04  of him right now, I couldn't tell you it was him.  I

 05  don't know why he would pick us out of all people to come

 06  towards, but he was coming at me.  And then he turned to

 07  Kyle.  When I saw Kyle can't, Kyle try to get to the

 08  truck, that's when he realized, okay, maybe I can get

 09  this guy, you know, this guy is, because he was right on

 10  our heels, the distance wasn't much, and when Kyle

 11  couldn't get in, he just full strength right toward Kyle.

 12  Q.     If Vinny hadn't been distracted by you and kept

 13  going right after Kyle, would he have caught Kyle before

 14  Kyle got in the truck?

 15  A.     Say that again.

 16  Q.     So, if Vinny hadn't been distracted by looking at

 17  you and maybe going towards you a little bit, would he

 18  have caught Kyle sooner?

 19  A.     Yeah.  Well, I don't know.  Kyle was running back,

 20  and he was gaining on Kyle.  I could see him gaining on

 21  Kyle.  I'm pretty fast, like I said, I was just running,

 22  and I was just running back, I wasn't really too

 23  concerned he was going to catch me, you know, I was just

 24  retreating back, retreating back, retreating back.  And

 25  then something told him to go after Kyle, you know,


 01  whether it was Kyle couldn't get in the truck, he

 02  realized at this point in time he could go get him, he

 03  realized kind of trying to get to the truck, he couldn't,

 04  and he went behind toward Kyle.

 05  Q.     So Kyle makes it over to the driver's side door of

 06  the truck?

 07  A.     Yeah, driver's side.

 08  Q.     And he's now facing the door, his back is to

 09  Vinny?

 10  A.     Yeah, the way it seemed, yeah, I was right here. 

 11  You know, a little ways out.  Fence line, I was right

 12  next to the fence.  I was looking right at it.

 13  Q.     So how far are you from Kyle by the driver's side

 14  door?

 15  A.     I want to say probably thirty feet. 

 16  Q.     Okay.  Away from Kyle.  Now, how do you know that

 17  Kyle's trying to get in the door? 

 18  A.     Because he says, unlock the truck, Kyle says that. 

 19  Unlock the truck.  So I look over, see Kyle had slipped. 

 20  I saw him getting up.  And Vinny was just right on top of

 21  him.  Right then as Kyle is getting up, Vinny came in and

 22  did one of these, and it was this close.

 23  Q.     So Kyle is, so he's already slipped, and he's in

 24  the process of coming back up when Vinny comes in with

 25  the first axe?


 01  A.     Right.

 02  Q.     Is Kyle almost, as he's getting up, almost

 03  unknowingly getting into the, almost in the way of the

 04  first axe?

 05  A.     No, Kyle was getting up, and then Vinny realized

 06  he slipped, so he was coming in like to hit him with it,

 07  just barely missed him, to me.  It wasn't like Vinny was

 08  coming from to hit the side of the truck for no reason. 

 09  He was coming in because Kyle was trying to get in, he

 10  couldn't get in, he went back towards Kyle.  I don't know

 11  how Kyle slipped, but he did, and then he was trying, as

 12  he was getting up, you know, there was a lot of other

 13  people, bigger person, Gib, maybe, somebody else didn't

 14  have that reaction time, Kyle didn't really know, he

 15  turned around, there was Vinny, maybe would have gotten

 16  hit by that, you know.

 17  Q.     How does Kyle avoid the axe blow as he's getting

 18  up? 

 19  A.     He just like moved a little bit.  I just saw Kyle

 20  move his head like that.  I saw --

 21  Q.     When he's getting up, is he now still facing the

 22  truck, or is he turned around?

 23  A.     He got, he gets up like this, looks back, that's

 24  when the axe went bang, right there.  Right, you know,

 25  this close.  He's getting up, looks back, and he goes


 01  like that, that's when the kid hits.

 02  Q.     How high was the axe blow?

 03  A.     It was, I'm not exactly sure, but it was, you

 04  know, probably midway in between, midway up the door.

 05  Q.     So Kyle gets up, now he's just dodged the blow,

 06  now is he, the axe has just hit the door.  Is he now to

 07  the rear of the axe or forward of the axe?

 08  A.     Appeared to be to the rear.  You know, he's behind

 09  the axe, first axe.

 10  Q.     The axe, axe blow came in the front?

 11  A.     To the front.

 12  Q.     The first axe blow comes in the front of him;

 13  that's the one he just dodges?

 14  A.     Right.

 15  Q.     So then what does he do next?

 16  A.     See, this point in time, I saw, I just kind of him

 17  hit once more, but I looked away, and that's why my

 18  original testimony, I thought that Kyle had gotten in to

 19  the driver's door and gotten out the passenger side. 

 20  Because when I relooked, he came around like this, I

 21  looked over, and I saw Kyle, I saw that the door open, I

 22  saw him getting the rifle out of the, you know, he gotten

 23  the rifle out.  So I didn't, but it was unclear to me

 24  whether he came around the truck or went through the

 25  truck.  I didn't see that axe.  I just saw the first,


 01  second axe blow, and then I looked away, you know, I, I

 02  looked the opposite way.  And then as I came around, I

 03  saw Kyle getting out of the passenger side.

 04  Q.     Now --

 05  A.     Unclear to me whether he went around or went

 06  through.

 07               JUROR:  How could he have gone through,

 08  because it was locked? 

 09               THE WITNESS:  I had unlocked the truck

 10  door when he said unlock it.  He said unlock it.  I'm

 11  looking for the keys. 

 12               JUROR:  So at this point you knew the door

 13  was unlocked and he could have gone through? 

 14               THE WITNESS:  Right, the driver's side

 15  window is smashed, he smashed the window right out with

 16  the axe.  Kyle's dog was flipping out, barking, and like

 17  I said, original testimony I think I thought he hit the

 18  truck probably four, five, six times. 


 20  Q.     Right after Kyle almost gets hit with the axe and

 21  when the axe lands just to the, to the front of him, you

 22  look away; right? 

 23  A.     I saw one more blow into the side of the truck

 24  just in the side, side of truck when he hits once and hit

 25  again --


 01  Q.     Is Kyle --

 02  A.     -- through the windshield.

 03  Q.     Is Kyle looking around to see that second blow, or

 04  is he moving in a certain direction? 

 05  A.     He's moving, but like I said, I kind of looked

 06  away, and I didn't, I just didn't see where he went.  I,

 07  you know --

 08  Q.     What were you looking --

 09  A.     Obviously he didn't come this way.

 10  Q.     Right, because that would have been --

 11  A.     He would have swung right by me, exactly, so

 12  either went, got by Vinny, when he, or he went, I thought

 13  he went through the truck, but I didn't seen that.  In my

 14  original testimony, I thought he got out here.  What I

 15  saw is him opening up the passenger door.

 16  Q.     So you look away; which direction are you looking? 

 17  A.     I looked this way, I just looked around, and I

 18  remember looking away briefly, just looking away briefly. 

 19  I turned back around, Kyle was on this side of the truck. 

 20  I didn't know how.

 21  Q.     Toward the bathroom or something like that? 

 22  A.     I just looked, I turned my body around. 

 23  Q.     Do you know why he did that? 

 24  A.     I don't know.

 25  Q.     Anything you, anything else that you were trying


 01  to assess? 

 02  A.     I honestly can't tell you.  At this point in time,

 03  I'm just, I'm worked up at this point in time, you know. 

 04  I wasn't just to sit there and be like -- so then I

 05  started to move, you know, push around this way.  Because

 06  after that, when Kyle is over here, I thought maybe he

 07  would come at me, you know, so I'm standing here.  And I

 08  noticed Kyle getting out over here, so I started moving

 09  around over here.  Gib's car was over here.

 10  Q.     Hold up for second.  So you see Kyle get, actually

 11  getting out of truck on this side? 

 12  A.     No, getting, that's what I mean, I don't know if

 13  he was, I thought originally that's why I thought he'd

 14  gotten in and out, but he was just getting the rifle out.

 15  Q.     So, just so we're clear, you see him unloading the

 16  rifle as opposed to seeing him step out of the truck? 

 17  A.     Right.  I see him go like this with the rifle. 

 18  Q.     Okay. 

 19  A.     He had gotten it out of the truck.  But it was

 20  unclear to me when he got in and got out with the rifle

 21  or whether he had, you know --

 22  Q.     So at this point, you know he didn't come around

 23  this side because you were there? 

 24  A.     Right.

 25  Q.     And maybe he went through because you unlocked it? 


 01  A.     Right, but, you know.

 02  Q.     Could he have crawled underneath the truck? 

 03  A.     He could have.  It was unclear to me.  I took my

 04  attention, I looked back like there for a second, looked

 05  back around.  Obviously things were happening, like this,

 06  and emotions were high when I looked back, and that's all

 07  I can say.  I saw Kyle on this side of the truck, and I

 08  was on this side of the truck, and Vinny was on this side

 09  of the truck, and I said this ain't good, you know, no, I

 10  don't really want to be in this situation.  I was over by

 11  the beer tent.  I did a big loop around the beer tent. 

 12  As I'm looking around this way, that's when I can't --

 13  Gib's car was here, though, and there was another car I

 14  couldn't see, I heard the first shot. 

 15  Q.     As you're looping around outside of Gib's car or

 16  coming between --

 17  A.     No, no, I am, Gib's car is right like, right, I

 18  looped way around. 

 19  Q.     Wide loop? 

 20  A.     Wide loop, wide loop. 

 21  Q.     So you hear the first shot? 

 22  A.     First, the first shot.  I'm like, I couldn't see

 23  nothing, I couldn't see what had happened.  I thought

 24  Kyle shot on the ground as a warning shot.  I didn't

 25  think the kid had been touched.  When I looked over, I


 01  couldn't, I could then see Kyle, and I could see Vinny

 02  getting down like he had the axe like this he was getting

 03  down like this, like trying to, you know, not like Kyle,

 04  nowhere, he was, you know, trying to be the element of

 05  surprise.  I could see him going like this.

 06  Q.     So right after, right after shot number one, how

 07  soon after you hear the gun go off do you actually have a

 08  clear view of where Kyle and Vinny are? 

 09  A.     Probably couple seconds, you know, I hear the shot

 10  as I'm in route, I looked over, couldn't see nothing

 11  through Gib's car.  I went up a couple more steps. 

 12  That's when I could see Vinny over here, getting down

 13  like that.

 14  Q.     So Vinny's over on the passenger side after shot

 15  number one? 

 16  A.     Yeah.

 17  Q.     He's, and he's getting down with kind of, I want

 18  to say almost a crouching position? 

 19  A.     He was weird.  He was going like there, so Kyle

 20  wouldn't see him, up over the truck.  Kyle was, I

 21  couldn't exactly see where Kyle's position was.  I just

 22  looked over and like I had, I saw Vinny with the axe like

 23  this just going like this.  That's all I saw.  Then I

 24  kept, I moved into the giant loop around. 

 25  Q.     So you continued looping around this way around


 01  the truck, several other vehicles? 

 02  A.     This, this diagram would probably be helpful.

 03  Q.     We can use it at -- use it if you want?

 04  A.     This too big, you know, to give you the idea

 05  what's going on. 

 06  Q.     How about this?  This is not to scale, so some of

 07  distances are not accurate?

 08  A.     Right.  This helps me.

 09  Q.     This is the F350?

 10  A.     Right.

 11  Q.     This is probably Gib's car?

 12  A.     Yep, that's Gib's car.

 13  Q.     That's the tent?

 14  A.     Yes.

 15               MR. SAND:  When you say this --

 16               MR. CAHILL:  Okay. 


 18  Q.     V-1 is Kyle's F350, V-4 is Gib's sedan, the tent

 19  is the tent?  I think all the others are labeled. 

 20  A.     Oh, man.  Yeah, I started moving around like this,

 21  first shot happens.  I can't see nothing.  Obviously I

 22  get up to here, I can see through this way right through

 23  here, I can see Vinny trying to get down.  I moved all

 24  the way around the tent, came all the way over it here by

 25  this green truck.  V-5 is the green truck.  I moved all


 01  the way over to here.  At this point in time when I got

 02  all the way over to here, I stopped.  That's when

 03  registered in my mind, okay, there's a second rifle in

 04  the car, the .22.  That gun had gotten out at Popple

 05  Dungeon Road, shot a couple shots at the tree.  I didn't

 06  know how many, if there was more shots in it, or if there

 07  wasn't, was it loaded, was it not.  I don't know.  But

 08  Kyle was on this side right toward the back, that corner,

 09  like this.  He wasn't never, kept, always keeps his eyes

 10  on Vinny.  And the passenger side, the door was open,

 11  passenger door was open, driver's door was closed.  So --

 12  Q.     So Kyle is on the driver's side but back by the

 13  tailgate?

 14  A.     Yep, yep, back right here.  Keeping his eyes on

 15  Vinny when Vinny is right up here.

 16  Q.     Is he keeping his eyes on Vinny through the rifle

 17  sights; is the gun shouldered?

 18  A.     Yes, he's just like this.

 19  Q.     Vinny is on the passenger side toward the middle

 20  of truck?

 21  A.     What's that? 

22  Q.     Toward the middle of the truck? 

 23  A.     He's right at the passenger door.

 24  Q.     Okay, okay, sorry, keep going. 

 25  A.     So, then it registers to me that there's rifle in


 01  the car, like I told you guys before, it was in the back

 02  seat, but angled forward, so you can barely see it,

 03  stock, if you were to look at doors open, if you were to

 04  look over, you could see that butt end of the stock

 05  sticking up, so my fear was at that point in time, maybe

 06  still some shells in it, you know, maybe he, I knew this

 07  guy was crazy, I knew like, what he was doing with a

 08  splitting maul, I knew he had bad intentions, I knew it

 09  wasn't good.  My worst fear was him getting that gun, the

 10  second gun, pulling the trigger back, having it be some

 11  shots in it, and then, you know, there's families around,

 12  I was scared for everybody, you know, not only for Kyle. 

 13  That was my first initial thought, was he's going to get

 14  the gun, maybe load it, maybe it will be in there, maybe

 15  he'll shoot my brother, you know, that was my thought,

 16  that was what partly registered in my head, you know.  I

 17  went over back here.  I wanted to stay out of this whole

 18  thing, but at that point in time, like I said, registered

 19  to me, so I then decided I would go get this rifle out of

 20  the situation, because I knew it was in there.  So I came

 21  running up like this.  Vinny had his eyes on Kyle.  He

 22  never saw me coming running up to the car, so I got right

 23  up to the truck, opened the driver's door, reached in to

 24  grab the gun.  As I grabbed it, Vinny looks over at me,

 25  sees me.  I grab the gun out as quickly as I can, take a


 01  couple of steps back, you know, retreating this way.  As

 02  I take a couple steps back, I see Vinny starting to come

 03  around the front of the truck. 

 04  Q.     So you're retreating up the driver's side front of

 05  the truck?

 06  A.     Right.  I come just like this, grab it, and then I

 07  took a couple steps back in the same path that I came

 08  down.

 09  Q.     Okay.  So, and at that point are you backpedaling,

 10  are you facing --

 11  A.     I was taking a couple steps back as he started

 12  coming around the front of vehicle.  I, knew realized he

 13  was coming at me, and I really, you know, I realized he

 14  was pretty fast to begin with when he was running, so I

15    knew he wasn't slow kid, so as I got there, I turned

16    16  around and run as fast as I can, probably twenty, twenty-

 17  five feet up like this.  Turned back around to see him

 18  coming at me.  So that's when I pulled back the pin, took

 19  off, I pulled back the pin, and I realized was a shell in

 20  there, took it off safety.  I shot once right before my

 21  feet like right directly in front of my feet.  That

 22  didn't stop him at all.  He just kept coming, kept

 23  coming.  So I raised the rifle up a little bit more.  I

 24  didn't point it at him at all, I just raised it up, and

 25  shot again, and I saw the dirt kick up.  I shot two to


 01  three feet before his feet, you know, just to try and get

 02  him to stop, you know.  He's coming at me, I shoot just

 03  to try to get him to stop coming at me.  I just wanted to

 04  get the rifle, the other rifle out of that situation, and

 05  that was it.  But then once he started coming at me,

 06  turned back around, saw him coming.  I shot once.  That

 07  didn't nothing.  I raised it up, shot once right before

 08  him another time, right before his feet.  He briefly

 09  stopped, and then I turned back around and ran as fast as

 10  I could up to the green truck, which is --

 11  Q.     So when you're firing those two shots that are,

 12  generally speaking, first into the ground and second

 13  towards Vinny into the ground --

 14  A.     Yep.

 15  Q.     -- what general direction is that, that fire; I

 16  mean, aside from down?

 17  A.     It's this way.

 18  Q.     So toward the F350?

 19  A.     He comes around like this, and I shoot once,

 20  twice.  He probably made about this far, and I shot, like

 21  I said, once, twice, and I briefly stopped.  And I

 22  didn't, wasn't, like, waiting there so see, are you going

 23  to stop, keep coming?  I turned back around toward the

 24  green truck, ran back towards the green truck.  As I'm

 25  running back towards the green truck, I got almost to the


 01  green truck, I saw -- let me go back.  As I turned around

 02  that second time, I see out of the corner of my eye my

 03  brother start pushing around this way.  Because he saw

 04  Vinny coming toward me, obviously my brother loves me,

 05  you know, we're close, so we do anything for each other. 

 06  Q.     He's moving up the driver's side moving towards

 07  the front driver's side?

 08  A.     Yes.

 09  Q.     And Vinny is still, he is still kind of above the

 10  headlight?

 11  A.     He's right here.

 12  Q.     Okay. 

 13  A.     I see Kyle, the corner of my eye, moving around a

 14  little bit.  Then I turn, like I said, I turn, and I ran

 15  back towards the green truck.  As I got almost to the

 16  green truck, that's when I heard the second shot, so I

 17  never saw the first or second shot, I just heard the

 18  second shot.  That's when I put the rifle into bed of

 19  green truck.

 20  Q.     After you hear the second shot, do you turn around

 21  at all?

 22  A.     I turned around, but I can't see anything.

 23  Q.     Because of what?

 24  A.     Because of this vehicle here.  And like I said, I

 25  moved all the way around like this, this part of the


 01  vehicle.  I couldn't see nothing.  This was because the

 02  green truck, this truck, there's a table underneath the

 03  tent.  They have like four kegs there that day, from the

 04  softball games.  They are drinking all day.  But anyway,

 05  there was obstructions, I couldn't see nothing.  When I

 06  turned around, I couldn't see nothing, but like I said, I

 07  heard a second shot, turned around, couldn't see much, so

 08  I moved, I put the gun in the truck.  I moved right

 09  around to here, right through this alleyway, then I could

 10  see right through this alleyway right here in between all

 11  these cars.  I saw Vinny on the ground, I saw him go

 12  down, just like he had just went down.  I didn't see him

 13  go down.  He was like, went like that, he just barely

 14  fallen.  I saw Tim Arbuckle coming running up, kick him

 15  in the face.

 16               JUROR:  When you saw him fall --

 17               THE WITNESS:  I didn't see him fall.  I

 18  saw him on the ground.

 19               JUROR:  When you noticed him on the

 20  ground, did you notice what happened to the axe at that

 21  point? 

 22               THE WITNESS:  He never dropped the axe the

 23  entire time.  Never.  Never put the axe down.  Never.  He

 24  was, in fact, when medical people came over to him, the

 25  axe was right next to him.  Right next to him.  Every-


 01  thing is right there.  He had a knife in his pocket, and

 02  Tazer, Tazer, he gave that to Julie, but he never dropped

 03  the axe.

 04               JUROR:  Was he engaging conversation,

 05  screaming, hollering, at you? 

 06               THE WITNESS:  He wasn't saying nothing. 

 07  He had the axe cocked, and he was coming.  I wasn't about

 08  to find out, you know, what, you know -- the detective

 09  asked me, do you think that he was coming to scare you

 10  guys?  Or do you think that he was coming to do bodily

 11  harm?  And I said, you know, I really hundred percent

 12  feel he was going to really hit, he wanted to hit one of

 13  us with that to prove a point.  What it was, I don't

 14  know.  We didn't even know him.  But he was coming to hit

 15  one of us with that.  And, you know, I wasn't about to

 16  let him hit me with it, so that's why I just was trying

 17  to get him to, defer him away from me by shooting the,

 18  those two shots into the ground simply to stop him from

 19  coming towards me because He was running at me with the

 20  axe, and, you know --

 21               MR. CAHILL:  Why don't you actually go

 22  back to the witness stand, since we maxed out the chart

 23  here. 

 24               JUROR:  Kind of.  So when you fired at

 25  Vinny or axe man's feet, you're back by that green truck.


 01               THE WITNESS:  The first time? 

 02               JUROR:  Yeah, the first time since you

 03  fired.

 04               THE WITNESS:  I wasn't all the way back

 05  that far no, no.

 06               JUROR:  Then he keeps coming toward you.

 07               THE WITNESS:  See --

 08               MR. CAHILL:  Why don't you point.

 09               THE WITNESS:  I stopped here first time

 10  and turned around.  That's when he was coming at me like

 11  this.  I shot twice.  Then I turned back around and ran

 12  to the green truck. 

 13               JUROR:  Okay.

 14               THE WITNESS:  When I'm in route to the

 15  truck, almost at the truck, I hear a second shot.  I

 16  turned around, I can See my brother barely, like I think

 17  right here.  I don't know, I don't know how.  That's a

 18  car, that's a car.  You see the head but -- couldn't,

 19  like really, but I can't see Vinny, so I loop around

 20  here.  Like through the fence.  To here. 

 21               JUROR:  Somehow Vinny gets from up by the

 22  wheel of that second vehicle where he's threatening you,

 23  he gets all the way back to the passenger side? 

 24               THE WITNESS:  Well, like I said, as I

 25  started coming around the front of the truck, that's when


 01  I ran back and turned back around.  I saw him coming.  I

 02  don't remember this vehicle right here, to tell the

 03  truth, I don't remember, like this.  It doesn't seem to

 04  scale, this whole drawing doesn't seem to scale. 

 05               MR. SAND:  Excuse me for a second. 

 06  BY MR. CAHILL: 

 07  Q.     When you turned around and you see Vinny on the

 08  ground after shot number two, where's Vinny laying?

 09  A.     He's laying toward the back of Kyle's truck.

 10  Q.     Okay.  So he's laying somewhere back in there?

 11  A.     Yeah, maybe, probably say a little forward more

 12  than that.

 13  Q.     Okay. 

 14  A.     Yeah, like right there.  Yep. 

 15  Q.     So toward the rear of the vehicle, I understand

 16  could have been between it and Gib's car?

 17  A.     Yeah, yeah.

 18  Q.     Now, when you look over, you see Vinny laying down

 19  there.  Where's Kyle?

 20  A.     That's the thing, he went down.  I saw Tim coming

 21  running up through the middle of the two cars.  I have no

 22  idea why he got involved at this point in time or what

 23  the hell was his thinking.  I just saw him coming up,

 24  boot him in the face really hard.  Like I said, I could

 25  see, I couldn't, I could see two people, up near there,


 01  one of them, which is probably Kyle, but I couldn't see

 02  through Gib's car, what Kyle was doing.  You know what I

 03  mean.  It was unclear because Vinny was kind of more

 04  towards Gib's car than towards Kyle's truck, so, you

 05  know, Vinny and the car, and I saw Tim coming running up

 06  and kick him.  I saw another individual right behind

 07  Gib's car, which was Kyle, I didn't see him do anything,

 08  or, you know, but he may have, I'm not sure.  I just saw

 09  Tim.  Then I turned back around, everybody was frantic at

 10  this point in time.  But I couldn't physically see Kyle

 11  do anything.  Not saying.  I just didn't see from that

 12  point in time.

 13               JUROR:  Once, once you were observing,

 14  after Vinny was down, did you see anyone come to

 15  assistance? 

 16               THE WITNESS:  No one, I just, people were,

 17  I saw couple people dialing 911.  Nobody was going near

 18  him, nobody came near him, you know.  I mean, like

 19  for the most part the only people that could really had a

 20  good vantage point, you know, was myself, and I felt

 21  Jerry and Gib, I mean, for the most part, everybody else

 22  was hidden behind this tent, you know, they were all,

 23  because there's a fence that runs parallel to that tent

 24  behind it, and everybody was sitting, they were all,

 25  everybody was hanging out in the tent and behind by that


 01  chain-link fence.  Like I said, there's vehicles in the

 02  way, there's, you know, kegs, there's tables, so, I'm not

 03  sure what they saw but --

 04               JUROR:  Could you describe the two

 05  weapons, what working condition they were in? 

 06               THE WITNESS:  Both weapons, you mean the

 07  rifles? 

 08               JUROR:  Right.

 09               THE WITNESS:  They were both in very good

 10  condition.  Both work and operate very well.  But if

 11  that's not your question -- I'm really not sure what

 12  exactly you're asking me.

 13  BY MR. CAHILL: 

 14  Q.     Just to be clear, the .22 belonged to Kyle, and

 15  the 30-06 belonged to you? 

 16  A.     Yep.

 17  Q.     How long had you had the 30-06?

 18  A.     My dad, actually that was my first rifle.  My dad

 19  bought that for me.  He worked at Fellows, and one of the

 20  ladies bought it for her husband, and he could no longer

 21  have guns, so we got that for real cheap, probably when I

 22  was fourteen years old, so we're looking like eight years

 23  ago, you know.

 24  Q.     I'm assuming it has some sentimental value to you?

 25  A.     That and I just bought, I have a .270 which, which


 01  is, I hunt with now.  I boughten that last Christmas

 02  so --

 03  Q.     Now, the 30-06, you were going to loan it to

 04  Tristan for a short period of time; right?

 05  A.     Just that night.  I was just going to, like he

 06  said, he said I think he's going to come back tonight, I

 07  think he's going to have a gun, he already showed up at

 08  my house with Tazers and --

 09               JUROR:  Other than normal wear and tear,

 10  the weapons were in good shape? 

 11               THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Yeah.  I'm not sure

 12  exactly his .22, that's his rifle.  I know my 30-06 was

 13  in great condition. 

 14               JUROR:  Thank you.

 15               MR. CAHILL:  I was going to say so at the

 16  time that, I mean, I'm sure you took a look at it before

 17  you were thinking of giving to Tristan, any, I mean no 

 18  major breaks in it or anything like that before you

 19  gave --

 20               THE WITNESS:  No, no, not at all.

 21               MR. CAHILL:  All right.

 22               THE WITNESS:  No.

 23               JUROR:  I see.  After your brother shot

 24  Vinny, he said -- did you notice at any point after that

 25  happened, did he have the gun, did he put it back in the


 01  car, did he throw it, did he, did you --

 02               THE WITNESS:  See, this is the thing,

 03  that's the thing, after, after the shots had happened, it

 04  was just complete and total commotion.  People were, some

 05  people started leaping at this point in time from behind

 06  the tent.  You know, people were -- my brother was just,

 07  I remember looking for Kyle after, and I couldn't find

 08  him.  Not sure, I wasn't sure where he was.  And then all

 09  of a sudden he was over by the tent, and he showed up

 10  over by the tent, and he was extremely distraught.  You

 11  know, he didn't know what to do.  He said I think we

 12  should get out of here, and I said no, no, we should not. 

 13  He didn't know what to do.  You could see he was just

 14  completely and totally out of it. 

 15               JUROR:  You don't know what happened to

 16  the gun after he shot him? 

 17               THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure what happened

 18  to the 30-06.

 19               JUROR:  You don't know if he put it back

 20  in the car or threw it? 

 21               THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure.  I put that

 22  .22 in the green truck.  I'm not sure if, what happened

 23  to that.  After, I have no idea.  I just reconvened with

 24  Kyle by the tent after the whole thing had happened, and

 25  there was no guns.  I think probably put it back in his


 01  truck.

 02               JUROR:  Did your brother talk to anybody

 03  after he, after the shooting?

 04               THE WITNESS:  I just remember him saying

 05  self-defense, it was self-defense, he was coming at me. 

 06  That was all I could, like I said, I was originally

 07  looking for him, I could hear, I could hear his voice

 08  saying self-defense, but I was looking, people were

 09  everywhere, and I, he wasn't specifically talking to

 10  nobody, no.  He came looking for me.  Obviously I'm the

 11  closes person he has there, and he was like, you know,

 12  should, let's get out of the here.  I said no, we need to

 13  stay here.  He said, you're right.  I hugged him, and he

 14  sat down and waited. 

 15               JUROR:  Do you mind if we -- wanted to

 16  clarify something for myself.  When Vinny was hitting the

 17  door, and your brother went around, what you think -- you

 18  weren't sure -- was he continuing to hit the door while

 19  your brother was getting the rifle? 

 20               THE WITNESS:  Yep, he hit, he hit it.

 21               JUROR:  So kept on hitting the door? 

 22               THE WITNESS:  Yeah, and Kyle's dog was

 23  inside, flipping out, barking. 

 24               JUROR:  But when he went around, he didn't

 25  pursue him then? 


 01               THE WITNESS:  He, I didn't see Kyle go

 02  around the truck.  I saw Kyle get the gun out, and I saw

 03  Vinny was still on my side, if that's your question.  He

 04  was still on my side after he hit once near Kyle and hit

 05  a second time, then I looked away.  Kyle, Kyle and Vinny

 06  were real close.  Then I looked away.  When I looked

 07  back, Kyle was on the other side, but Vinny had hit one

 08  or two more times.  I'm not sure if the entire time he

 09  was hitting or what was going on, but when I turned

 10  around, Vinny was near the front of the truck, front left

 11  side, and Kyle was on the opposite side.  And obviously

 12  from that point of time when looped around, Vinny had

 13  obviously came around one way or the other towards Kyle,

 14  because I remember hearing Kyle say, get back, get back. 

 15  I remember him saying that, vividly, get back, get back,

 16  and obviously he didn't --

 17               JUROR:  Corey, I have two questions for

 18  you.  Why, when Vinny was coming toward you, why two

 19  shots? 

 20               THE WITNESS:  Because --

 21               JUROR:  Why not more or why not less? 

 22               THE WITNESS:  Because the first shot I

 23  shot right in front of myself and, you know, I was just

 24  trying to defer him.  I was trying to get him to stop

 25  coming towards me.  When I shot right before myself,


 01  obviously that was just a pointless maneuver.  He didn't

 02  stop, didn't faze him.  And keeping in mind this is after

 03  the first shot, which he had been shot in the leg.  And

 04  he never dropped the axe, he's running at me full speed

 05  still after having this wound in his leg.  He's still

 06  coming at me full spied.  The first shot, like I said, I

 07  shot directly in front of myself on that, didn't, that

 08  definitely did not, he didn't stop, he just kept coming. 

 09  So I raised up a little more and shot again, and just

 10  like I said, just trying to get him to stop coming

 11  towards me, because he was running towards me full speed.

 12               JUROR:  Did you consider a third shot? 

 13               THE WITNESS:  No, I just, like I said,

 14  after I saw him briefly stopped, I immediately turned

 15  around and ran back to the green truck.  I was just

 16  trying to get out of the situation, and get the rifle

 17  that I, that I was just trying to get that rifle out of

 18  the situation.  I was, the only reasonable I got involved

 19  with the whole thing.  Otherwise I would have been in the

 20  back by the tent scared with everybody else.  You know, I

 21  would have never even gotten involved because it was

 22  scary situation.  But like I said, I feared for the life

 23  of my brother, and I feared that if he got the gun, I

 24  don't know how many shots are in it, but things get

 25  really bad at that point in time.  This guy's crazed with


 01  a weapon.

 02               JUROR:  Second question for you, could you

 03  tell me again, when did you put the gun in the back of

 04  the green truck?  Was it before or after your, the second

 05  shot from the --

 06               THE WITNESS:  Thirty-ought-six? 

 07               JUROR:  Yeah.

 08               THE WITNESS:  I heard the second shot, and

 09  I turned around, and I put the gun right in the truck. 

 10  It was right then, after I shot my second shot, I turned

 11  around, ran back to the truck.  As I was running back to

 12  the truck, that's when Kyle's second shot happened, and

 13  then I put the rifle in the truck at this point in time,

 14  obviously, because Vinny was no longer coming at me, you

 15  know, otherwise I wouldn't have dropped it if he was

 16  still coming at me, I would have still had the gun and

 17  been wielding it.  I didn't because he was no longer a

 18  threat to me at this point in time.

 19               JUROR:  Corey --

 20               THE WITNESS:  She was first, I believe. 

 21  Trying to be polite. 

 22               JUROR:  Did, were you aware that Vinny had

 23  been injured with the first shot?

 24               THE WITNESS:  I, I, I honestly, I thought

 25  that the first shot by my brother, I said this in my


 01  testimony, I thought the first shot was, my brother had

 02  shot into the ground to, because I remember Kyle saying,

 03  get back, get back, get back.  Then I heard the shot, and

 04  I thought it was just him shooting into the ground. 

 05  Didn't see it, I didn't know one way or the other, but

 06  the reason why I thought that he had shot in the ground

 07  because how, well, after, when I said I looked over, I

 08  saw Vinny go like this, how well he was moving, you know,

 09  and a 30-06 with a hundred eighty grain, a hundred fifty

 10  grain bullet through his leg to most people is going to

 11  put you back or maybe you drop the axe, make you stop

 12  aggressing.  You know, and clearly when I came running up

 13  and grabbed that second gun, he didn't see me until I

 14  grabbed it, when he looked over at me, as soon as I

 15  grabbed it, I took a couple steps back, he started coming

 16  around at me, full speed, you know, and I turned and ran,

 17  turned back around.  He was running at me full speed.  He

 18  had been shot in the leg already, and I honestly didn't

 19  know he was shot because how well he was moving.  It

 20  wasn't till later that after this whole thing that I

 21  learned that he had been shot the first time, you know.

 22  BY MR. CAHILL: 

 23  Q.     Just want to clarify a couple quick things that

 24  have been coming up when you talked a bunch of times

 25  about your original testimony, that's your statement to


 01  the police?

 02  A.     Right.

 03  Q.     Right after this happened?

 04  A.     Right.

 05  Q.     Okay.  And when you went and put the .22 down by

 06  the green truck --

 07  A.     In the green truck.

 08  Q.     -- in the green truck, at that point did you know

 09  whether the .22 was out of bullets?

 10  A.     I didn't know.

 11  Q.     Okay.  Is at this point you don't know whether

 12  it's loaded or not?

 13  A.     Right.  I don't.  But like he said, he is no

 14  longer in sight coming towards me.  My brother had

 15  pushed, and that second shot had happened, so he wasn't,

 16  it was like he was continuing to come into me.  If that

 17  was the case, I would have continued to grab the rifle

 18  and get it out of situation.  But to me, the situation,

 19  he wasn't coming at me anymore, or anything like that,

 20  so, you know, situation was pretty much over at this

 21  point in time.

 22               JUROR:  You hadn't seen him on the ground

 23  then? 

 24               THE WITNESS:  I hadn't seen him on the

 25  ground yet, but I just, I just dropped it, you know.


 01               JUROR:  So conceivably your brother could

 02  have missed or could have been another warning shot

 03  because you don't know if he's been hit yet? 

 04               THE WITNESS:  Right, I don't know if he's

 05  been hit yet.  I just was scared.  I ran back.  I wasn't,

 06  tell you the truth, when you're in that situation, it's

 07  like you're not thinking as clearly as you'd like to be,

 08  you know, you just kind of trying to, like I said, I was

 09  just trying to do what was best at this point in time,

 10  which was, you know, at this point in time I thought just

 11  getting the rifle out of the situation would be the best

 12  thing to do.  When I did, he started coming at me, and I

 13  just shot a couple shots, which that did, it stopped him

 14  briefly, I turned and run the hell out of there.  I was

 15  just trying to get out of the situation. 

 16               JUROR:  Just to back up just a touch, when

 17  you went in the Jiffy Mart, Kyle talked to Mike Gleason;

 18  correct? 

 19               THE WITNESS:  Um.

 20               JUROR:  Did you, you had indicated that

 21  Vinny had stopped, gone to the house and threatened Gib;

 22  is that correct?  Is that the conversation? 

 23               THE WITNESS:  That's what I was told, is

 24  that, you know, think about it, when we originally

 25  called, Jerry originally called Gib and said, I mean


 01  Jerry originally called Vinny, he said fifteen minutes,

 02  and Vinny had, remember I said he had already been to the

 03  ball field once, so he came down there once.  We weren't

 04  there, obviously, because we were out, you know, on back

 05  roads the other direction.  Then he was driving around

 06  Chester looking for somebody.  That's when he went to

 07  Mike Gleason's house, was then.

 08               JUROR:  Did he actually go in Mike's

 09  house? 

 10               THE WITNESS:  I have no idea whether he

 11  actually went in, I'm not sure.

 12               JUROR:  Okay.

 13               THE WITNESS:  I wasn't there, so kind of

 14  just can't speculate to say when I don't know.  But Mike

 15  said he was scared, Gib said that he had said I'm going

 16  to F-ing kill you and your family, rape your mom, or

 17  something along those lines.  But I'm not exactly sure. 

 18               JUROR:  Moving forward, Vinny gets out of

 19  the car, grabs the maul, starts running at people. 

 20               THE WITNESS:  He didn't just get out of

 21  the car and started doing that.  Like I said, he was out

 22  of the car, he was talking to, saying I could take on all

 23  of you, look how many of you.

 24               JUROR:  And he starts running, you said

 25  full strength? 


 01               THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 02               JUROR:  Does he stop? 

 03               THE WITNESS:  Doesn't stop.  Ninety-degree

 04  fence line, he arcs around the fence line and keeps

 05  coming.

 06               JUROR:  Swinging at people? 

 07               THE WITNESS:  No, nobody was close enough

 08  then, but obviously I had heard some speculation that

 09  he had stopped and said to Jordan, I could F-ing kill you

 10  right now, you F-ing C word to her, which I didn't see

 11  that, either, but that was what was said.  I remember

 12  because Jerry had indicated that he threw a beer bottle

 13  at Vinny when he stopped.

 14               JUROR:  That's, back up to what you know.

 15               THE WITNESS:  Right, right, right.

 16               JUROR:  That's because that's the most

 17  important thing right now, so based upon what you know,

 18  he starts running full strength after you guys, he

 19  doesn't stop to swing, doesn't stop to talk, or yell at

 20  anybody, he's running full strength right at you? 

 21               THE WITNESS:  Right.

 22               JUROR:  Thank you.

 23               THE WITNESS:  The, the only person he

 24  really got close enough was Jordan at that, Jordan,

 25  Jordan she thinks she's invincible, she thinks she's a


 01  girl, nobody's going to hit her, which nobody would, but

 02  this guy was crazy, none of us wanted to get that close

 03  to find out whether he was going to hit us with it or

 04  not.  We were all fleeing back, and he was coming at us. 

 05  We are all just receding back as far as we could.  That's

 06  what I think that this whole thing really does come down

 07  to, too, we were receding as far as we could until our

 08  backs were against the wall. 

 09               JUROR:  So you're fleeing as fast as you

 10  can; he's chasing you as fast --

 11               THE WITNESS:  Right, and he was fast, he's

 12  fast.

 13               JUROR:  You mentioned he's actually

 14  closing the gap.

 15               THE WITNESS:  Right. 

 16               JUROR:  So the thought of, for him to

 17  stop, you know, seems, okay.

 18               THE WITNESS:  Right.  And to me it was

 19  more my brother trying to get into the vehicle for his

 20  own safety other than, you know, trying to unlock THE

 21  door so he can pull out a weapon.  It wasn't like that. 

 22  He knew that Vinny was gaining on him, and then Vinny was

 23  right there.  It became him or Vinny, you know. 

 24               JUROR:  Right.

 25  BY MR. CAHILL: 


 01  Q.     I have follow-up question on the issue of running

 02  away.  We're at the point where shot number one and 30-06

 03  has been fired.  You are, you have the .22 in your hand. 

 04  You're backpedaling.  You fire into the ground, you fire

 05  again into the ground, but further ahead, Vinny is

 06  essentially occupied by you at this point in time?

 07  A.     Yeah, he was coming after me.

 08  Q.     What prevents Kyle from using that time to run

 09  away?

 10  A.     Using that time to run away.  My brother, if he

 11  ever saw anybody coming at me, would not go the other

 12  way.  He would try to protect me.  Me and him are

 13  unbelievably close.  That's why I'd do the same for him. 

 14  I'll do the same for him.  Out of corner of my eye I saw

 15  Kyle pushing around, coming around towards me, like I

 16  just saw out of the corner of my eye, I knew where Kyle

 17  was.  I saw him around corner. 

 18  Q.     So Kyle's coming around to protect you?

 19  A.     Right.

 20  Q.     At some point Vinny becomes disinterested in you?

 21  A.     I don't know.  Like I said, I shot that second

 22  shot.  He briefly stopped, just briefly stopped.  I

 23  wasn't waiting there like that.  I turned around right

 24  after that.  I saw him stop, turn around.  And like I

 25  said, I was trying to get the gun and get out of the


 01  situation, as far as back as I could, as far away.  That

 02  is then when he started coming around at me, coming at

 03  me.  It was my problem then, what to do, what am I

 04  supposed to do?  You know.

 05  Q.     I think you have a question back there?

 06               JUROR:  From the first shot that you heard

 07  to the second shot that you heard, but didn't see, how

 08  many times did you get, elapsed between? 

 09               THE WITNESS:  Like I say, with all the

 10  emotions, I'm not going to try to guess at time. 

 11               JUROR:  Seconds, minutes? 

 12               THE WITNESS:  Between his first and second

 13  shot, not very long, obviously, because the first shot

 14  had happened, I looked over, saw Vinny getting around,

 15  didn't take me but twenty seconds to loop around by that

 16  green truck, and it hit me right off I got to get this

 17  weapon.  I went running up, grabbed the gun.  I came

 18  around, and from the time of when I shot my two shots, I

 19  finished my second shot, it wasn't a couple of seconds

 20  before Kyle's second shot, you know, it was, Kyle was

 21  right on top of it, that he was coming after me,

 22  obviously, that was, I mean Kyle would rather protect me

 23  over his own self but you know --

 24               JUROR:  When you said you saw him

 25  crouching and threatening your brother, is it possible


 01  that he was, was hurt from his leg, that's why he was

 02  down like that? 

 03               THE WITNESS:  No, not at all.  You could

 04  tell he was making long strides with his legs, getting

 05  down, you could see that he was wielding the axe, if that

 06  was the case, why still wield the axe, why wield the axe,

 07  why, you could see it was clearly a tactical thing for

 08  just trying to get out of Kyle's path of vision.  You

 09  know what I mean, if Kyle's on one side, I can't see him,

 10  Vinny comes around, then he pops up, he gets him, that

 11  was to me how it seemed, was that he was, he was

 12  definitely not going down, he was definitely not hurt at

 13  all or stunned by that first shot because he was clearly

 14  running at me.  And I don't even know how it's possible

 15  for somebody, you know, with a 30-06 wound in the leg to

 16  run like that.  I don't but --

 17               JUROR:  Once Vinny's on the ground from

 18  the second shot, the one that you didn't see or the other

 19  one you didn't see, I know you didn't see what happened

 20  immediately after other than Tim Arbuckle rushing up and

 21  kicking him, but did you later learn from Kyle or anybody

 22  else whether Kyle had to do anything to make sure that

 23  Vinny was staying on the ground? 

 24               THE WITNESS:  I have no idea.  I didn't

 25  see, like I said, I barely saw another individual.  I


 01  didn't see whether it was Kyle.  I just saw that second

 02  individual offset to Gib's car, and then I didn't really

 03  sit there and watch.  I turned back around.  I walked

 04  back to the tent, like I said, I didn't see anything else

 05  from that point in time, you know.

 06               JUROR:  So you I mean -- there's been no

 07  talk between you and your brother what happened after

 08  Vinny went down.

 09               THE WITNESS:  No.

 10               Yes, sir. 

 11               JUROR:  When Vinny came after you when you

 12  took the .22 out --

 13               THE WITNESS:  Um.

 14               JUROR:  Did you load the gun, or was the

 15  gun already loaded? 

 16               THE WITNESS:  I mentioned I pulled back

 17  the pin so there was, there was still obviously bullets

 18  in the rifle. 

 19               JUROR:  So the gun --

 20               THE WITNESS:  No, not loaded.  There's a

 21  difference between having a gun Loaded and having shells

 22  in the gun.  You know.

 23               JUROR:  Actually the clarification, if I,

 24  I understand it, a loaded gun is a magazine is in the

 25  weapon? 


 01               THE WITNESS:  Um-hum, okay.

 02               JUROR:  That's a loaded gun? 

 03               THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure.  But I, like I

 04  said, I didn't know whether that gun was or was not

 05  loaded.  It wasn't, I didn't know, I knew that Kyle had

 06  used it earlier to shot a couple times, I didn't know

 07  whether it was or was not loaded.  I feared that it was

 08  loaded and that he would get it.  That's my fear.  When I

 09  got the weapon, like I said, I pulled back the pins, saw

 10  one going in the chamber, and took it off safety as he

 11  was coming at me but --

 12               JUROR:  When you shot the warning shots

 13  towards the axe man, what direction was the tent; was the

 14  tent to your back at this point? 

 15               THE WITNESS:  Yeah, the tent was to my

 16  back.  I turned back around towards the, away from

 17  everybody.

 18               JUROR:  Okay. 

 19               THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't have, I mean, my

 20  dad's always taught us you never, never point a gun

 21  towards anybody, always keep it towards the ground, you

 22  don't keep it loaded.  He tried to, you know, teach us

 23  all the right ways but --

 24               JUROR:  Corey, your intention, weapons

 25  aside, no axe, no guns, you guys versus Vinny, was it


 01  your intention, you think it was Tim's or Kyle's

 02  intention to go up and physically have a confrontation

 03  with Vinny? 

 04               THE WITNESS:  Not at all.  Not at all,

 05  because we had had the conversation, we had, all we

 06  wanted to do is just talk to him, we just want to talk

 07  to him and try and ask him why are you coming at our

 08  friends, look how many of us there are down here at this

 09  place, a public place, that's why we went down to the

 10  ball field in the first place, was because we thought it

 11  was going to be protected area where this crazy guy, we

 12  didn't know much about him other than he was crazy, we

 13  didn't think he would do a lot at a public place like

 14  that.  We were going to try to talk to him.  We put the

 15  vehicle way away, he parked way away, so we can just,

 16  closing the distance to be able to talk and that was it. 

 17  You know.  There was never anything from me or Kyle or

 18  Jerry that indicated any physical, you know, but Tim had

 19  said, you know, I'll shove that Tazer up your butt, and

 20  that was the only thing that was said. 

 21               JUROR:  You think Tim felt like more the

 22  aggressor, aggressive one, that he was going to get

 23  straightened out, or did you all feel that you really

 24  needed --

 25               THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure what Tim felt.


 01               JUROR:  By his actions, did it seem like

 02  he wanted to go beat the crap out of him, or, I mean,

 03  like what --

 04               THE WITNESS:  I honestly don't know.  I

 05  honestly know our intentions were we just wanted to talk

 06  to him.  Tim wasn't with us the rest of the day.  I don't

 07  know what was in Tim's mind.  I didn't talk to him, Tim,

 08  about that.  We had been in the truck.  I know what we

 09  had said.  We are just going to talk to him.  We don't

 10  want --

 11               JUROR:  Did you really think he was going

 12  to talk after all that swearing and threatening, he was

 13  going to kill your family? 

 14               THE WITNESS:  We didn't know what to do,

 15  ma'am, honestly.  We were just trying to help our friend

 16  out, talk to him, look how many of us we are down here,

 17  we all have his back, we all want you to cut the crap,

 18  stop coming after our friends.  That was the only thing. 

 19  Whether it was a good idea, can't change what happened,

 20  you know, what you can do is say that was our intentions,

 21  we just wanted to talk to him.  Things got out of hand,

 22  obviously, because of what happened, but, you know, we

 23  just wanted to talk, and there was no talking, when he

 24  grabbed the maul and started running towards us, you

 25  know. 


 01               JUROR:  You think that he ever felt

 02  threatened seeing all the people kind of walking towards

 03  him? 

 04               THE WITNESS:  There was only three or four

 05  of us that walked up.

 06               JUROR:  Okay, but still, three or four

 07  guys, You think that he felt like he needed to then

 08  protect Julie and Kirby, or you don't know? 

 09               THE WITNESS:  I don't, I don't, I

 10  definitely don't think he felt that way.  He didn't

 11  have -- HE had the option at that point in time, he could

 12  have just talked with us, said I don't like this guy

 13  because of this or I have a beef with him because of

 14  this.  It wasn't like that he was zapping the Tazer and

 15  completely put the Tazer away and grabbed the axe and

 16  made his move, you know, it wasn't, was no clear logical

 17  thinking, didn't see like from him -- if that was me in

 18  that position, I would have never, never, never, ever,

 19  ever, ever done that type of stuff.  I wouldn't ever come

 20  at somebody with an axe.  If somebody told me to come

 21  back with an axe, and I was coming after you, I would

 22  have dropped it.  What possesses somebody, something,

 23  somebody has a weapon drawn on you, you're going to try

 24  to hit them, someone has a gun, tells you to get back,

 25  you keep on going like they are not even there, not


 01  fazed, doesn't seem like a normal, rational human being

 02  to me.

 03               JUROR:  You, knowing that he was crazy,

 04  pretty much, what, you talked to him, heard him --

 05               THE WITNESS:  I haven't ever talked to him

 06  or seen him.

 07               JUROR:  You were there when the conversa-

 08  tion was, when they called him, they were yelling on the

 09  phone, you said you heard him? 

 10               THE WITNESS:  He had arguments, Jerry and

 11  him.

 12               JUROR:  Right, right.

 13               THE WITNESS:  I heard --

 14               JUROR:  You heard him, it got worse and

 15  worse and worse, you guys knew he was pretty hyped up. 

 16  Now you're probably, oh, probably, how do I want to say,

 17  you follow the law pretty good in, you're deer hunter,

 18  whatever, wouldn't you want to go to the police officers

 19  and say something, our, the state police before you went

 20  to the ball field? 

 21               THE WITNESS:  I, I honestly was just, I

 22  just drove, I wasn't talking with Vinny.  I was just a

 23  witness in this whole thing, pretty much.  Maybe Tristan

 24  should have went to the state police.  We had no involve-

 25  ment with it, the events that happened the day before and


 01  everything else, probably should have, he probably

 02  shouldn't have been locked up.  But, you know, I didn't

 03  know him, I didn't know his actions, how crazy he was. 

 04  Tristan was explaining it to me, but like I said, from

 05  around here, you don't really think that somebody's going

 06  to be that crazy, that's going to really do that.  You

 07  don't think that.  You just don't, because from around

 08  here, people get in fistfights, that's one thing, but

 09  this stuff doesn't happen, you know, these things do not

 10  happen.  We just thought if we got enough of us down

 11  there, you know, to talk with him, that maybe he

 12  rationalize and say, you know, this is what I'm doing,

 13  you know, I need to stop.  But that wasn't how it came,

 14  you know, that was our intentions, like I said, we can't

 15  change what happened, our intentions were just to talk

 16  to him.  That's, that's all I can say. 

 17               MR. CAHILL:  Okay.  That is all.  Thank

 18  you very much.

 19               THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 20               JUROR:  Thank you so much. 

 21               THE WITNESS:  Thank you guys very much,

 22  appreciate it.