HERE YOU WILL READ THE INITIAL FIRST STATEMENTS, THE GRAND JURY AND THE DEPOSITION OF JERRY UCCI, ONE OF THE MAIN FIGURES IN VINNIE'S MURDER. JERRY UCCI WAS THE ONE WHO LURED VINNIE TO THE FIELD SAYING HE WANTED TO FIGHT HIM ONE ON ONE, THEN CALLED ARBUCKLE AND TOLD HIM THAT VINNIE WANTED TO FIGHT HIM.
THOUGH UCCI WAS A MAIN FIGURE IN THIS HE WAS ONLY INTERVIEWED FOR 15 MINUTES THE NIGHT OF THE MURDER... 4 HOURS LATER! ALL THE WHILE HE WAS WITH COREY AS THEY PLANNED THEIR STORY. INCREDIBLY, UCCI WAS NEVER INTERVIEWED A SECOND TIME! EVERYONE ELSE WAS INTERVIEWED AT LEAST TWICE, IIN JULIE'S CASE 3 TIMES, BUT NOT UCCI OR KYLE! IT WAS SOMETIME AFTER THE INITIAL INTERVIEWS THAT SAND HAD MADE HIS DECISION TO THROW THE CASE. THERE WAS NEVER ANY NEED FOR A SECOND INTERVIEW ONCE THIS DECISION WAS MADE.
BUT AS YOU'LL READ, UCCI STILL COULDN'T GET THE STORY STRAIGHT! IN EACH STATEMENT HE CHANGED HIS STORY SO OBVIOUSLY, SO BLATANTLY THAT JOHN LAVOIE HAD NO PROBLEM DISCREDITING HIM.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 BY MR. SAND.
21 Q. Tell us your name, please?
22 A. My name is Jerry Ucci.
23 Q. How do you spell your last name?
24 A. U-C-C-I.
25 Q. How would you like me to address you this morning,
01 Mr. Ucci, Jerry?
02 A. Jerry is fine.
03 Q. Jerry, where do you live?
04 A. I live in Saxton's River.
05 Q. How old are you?
06 A. I'm twenty-one.
07 Q. Do you work?
08 A. Currently, no. I actually lost my job over this.
09 Q. Okay. Over this incident?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How was that?
12 A. I was working for Homestead Landscaping, and once
13 they heard of the incident, they let me and Kyle Bolaski
15 Q. Who owns that business?
16 A. Steve and Tammy Blanchard.
17 Q. Okay. So, back in August of this year, where were
18 you living?
19 A. I was living in Chester. I was actually staying
20 with Kyle.
21 Q. Okay. And how long have you known Kyle?
22 A. I met him in the springtime when me and him both
23 got the job at Homestead Landscaping. We became friends.
24 Q. So Kyle worked as well at Homestead Landscaping?
25 A. Yes, he did.
01 Q. Where is that business located?
02 A. It's in Bondville, Vermont, near Stratton
04 Q. Did you and Kyle Bolaski have the same job?
05 A. Yes.
06 Q. What did you guys do?
07 A. We were spray technicians. We did pesticides and,
08 you know, things of that nature.
09 Q. You shared an apartment?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Fair to say that you guys are good friends?
12 A. We have become pretty much best friends, yes.
13 Q. And how about in August of 08, had that best
14 friendship developed by that time?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Do you know his brother, Corey?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. How would you describe your relationship with
20 A. I'm good friends with Corey.
21 Q. So let me run through a cast of folks. How about
22 Tristan Blanchard?
23 A. I, I met Tristan for the first time, I think,
24 three days before the incident. So I didn't, I didn't
25 really know him.
01 Q. Where did that meeting take place?
02 A. There was a gathering at a friend of ours, Gib's,
03 and I ended up meeting him there.
04 Q. All right. That's Gib Bastian?
05 A. Yes.
06 Q. And he's a friend of yours?
07 A. Yes, he is now, yes.
08 Q. Do you know Gib' ex-girl friend?
09 A. I do. I went to school with Kirby.
10 Q. Kirby?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know Tim Arbuckle?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. How do you know Tim?
15 A. My sister actually has a daughter with his
17 Q. Okay. And how about Julie Kronberg?
18 A. Never met her.
19 Q. How about Vincent Tamburello, Jr.?
20 A. Never met him.
21 Q. So focus your attention to the day of the shooting
22 incident, August 17, and any of the days before that.
23 When's the first time that you heard that anybody was
24 having difficulty with Vincent Tamburello?
25 A. I think it was late the evening before one of
01 Kyle's friends had called and said there was some, some
02 guy who started a fight, or something, but I, I never
03 really heard of anything before that.
04 Q. And in some proceedings, what somebody else said
05 you might not be able to talk about it. In this
06 proceeding, I may ask you to talk about what someone else
07 told you that someone else said.
08 A. Right.
09 Q. All right? So did you have a discussion with
10 Kyle, and in this discussion, learn that someone was
11 having problems with Mr. Tamburello?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Okay. Did Kyle tell you who it was who was having
14 difficulty with Mr. Tamburello?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who was that?
17 A. Gib.
18 Q. So tell me what you learned, recognizing you
19 learned it through Kyle?
20 A. He's, we didn't really talk about it too much. He
21 said there was just like a fight or something that had
22 happened in Springfield, you know, and we didn't really
23 get into it too much because we weren't concerned with
24 it. It had nothing to do with us.
25 Q. Didn't involve you?
01 A. Right.
02 Q. Do you know how Kyle learned that Gib had had a
04 A. I think because Gib had called him and talked to
05 him about it.
06 Q. If the ball field incident, the shooting, takes
07 place on Sunday, when in relation to that did you have
08 your conversation with Kyle where he told you about what
09 Gib said?
10 A. This was late Saturday evening.
11 Q. Where did you spend Saturday night?
12 A. Spent the, Kyle and I spent the night at our
14 Q. I'll ask you, maybe with some questions from me,
15 to walk through Sunday.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. So stupid question, where did you wake up on
19 A. At the apartment.
20 Q. About what time?
21 A. I'd say it was around noon.
22 Q. We're learning that the sleeping habits of some
23 people may be a little different, but I'm starting to
24 understand one who sleeps at my house a little bit.
25 Okay. Did Kyle spend the night there, as
02 A. Yes.
03 Q. Anybody else?
04 A. No.
05 Q. Any pets?
06 A. Yes, Kyle's dog Harley.
07 Q. What did you do? What time did you leave the
09 A. Shortly after noon, we went from his house, we
10 were supposed to go work for his father. We went over to
11 his father's house in Springfield. We were kind of
12 feeling lazy that day, and we decided against working.
13 We met up with his father and his brother around, I
14 think, it was two-thirty. Corey had just got done
15 working, and we decided that the three of us were going
16 to go out scouting for deer.
17 Q. The three, the third person being whom?
18 A. Corey Bolaski.
19 Q. What does Corey do for work?
20 A. Corey works at MJS Landscaping in Bellows Falls.
21 Q. He's landscaper, as well?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You and Kyle went from your place, from Chester to
24 Kyle's dad's house in Springfield?
25 A. Correct.
01 Q. In what vehicle?
02 A. In Kyle's, Kyle's vehicle.
03 Q. What is that?
04 A. He has a Ford F350 pickup truck.
05 Q. Who drove that?
06 A. Kyle.
07 Q. Do you, did you do some landscaping?
08 A. Not on Sunday, no.
09 Q. So the plan was to do some, but you didn't do any?
10 A. Right, right.
11 Q. And was that for, if you had done it, would it
12 have been for work purposes, or just because it was
14 A. Kyle's dad had actually hired us to do some
15 landscaping at his house.
16 Q. Where did you meet up with Corey?
17 A. At Corey and Kyle's parents' house.
18 Q. Do you know how Corey got there?
19 A. He was working with his father that day, and they
20 came back to the house and met us there.
21 Q. Did Corey have a vehicle there?
22 A. He, no, his truck was at his apartment, which was
23 below Kyle, it was just below Kyle's and our apartment.
24 Q. Back in Chester?
25 A. Yes.
01 Q. So did you say Corey joined the two of you at this
03 A. He does.
04 Q. What do you do?
05 A. From there we drive back to Chester, we went to
06 Lisai's Market and met up with a co-worker of ours who
07 worked at Homestead with us, and he had told us about
08 some property that his father owned in Chester that we
09 could go scout, which was up on Popple Dungeon Road.
10 Q. Who is that co-worker?
11 A. His name is Ian Sutherland.
12 Q. Okay, go ahead.
13 A. So we head to Popple Dungeon Road, and we found
14 where the land was. There was like a logging trail. We
15 ended up taking Kyle's truck down that, looking for deer.
16 Q. Does Mr. Sutherland join you or --
17 A. No.
18 Q. He just got information?
19 A. We just got information from him.
20 Q. All right. And so you are scouting?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Now, we've heard that Mr. Bolaski is a hunter?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Kyle; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
01 Q. Do you know if Corey is a hunter?
02 A. He is.
03 Q. And how about yourself?
04 A. I am.
05 Q. Who is driving after meeting with Mr. Sutherland,
06 who is driving to the scouting area?
07 A. Kyle is.
08 Q. Still in Kyle's truck?
09 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that right?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Still in Kyle's truck?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many guns are in the truck at this point?
15 A. One.
16 Q. What is that?
17 A. The .22 caliber rifle.
18 Q. Scope or no scope on that?
19 A. I think there's a scope. Yeah, there's a scope on
21 Q. Whose gun is that?
22 A. That's Kyle's.
23 Q. Why is that in the vehicle?
24 A. He, he always has that in the vehicle. It's,
25 always in, it's always been in his truck ever since I can
02 Q. Do you get out of the vehicle, do any of you get
03 out of the vehicle at all during the scouting?
04 A. Yes. I stopped to go to the bathroom.
05 Q. Okay. This is a Sunday, you've woken up at noon,
06 you decide you're not going to go to work, you're going
07 to go scouting?
08 A. Right.
09 Q. Anyone drink anything?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Who and what?
12 A. Me and Kyle had had one or two beers apiece
13 throughout the course of the afternoon.
14 Q. Okay. Corey?
15 A. Corey, not that I know of, no.
16 Q. A bottle of vodka in the vehicle?
17 A. There was.
18 Q. Was some of that consumed?
19 A. I did drink some of that, yes.
20 Q. And did Corey have any?
21 A. Not that I know of.
22 Q. Did Kyle?
23 A. Not that I know of.
24 Q. During this afternoon -- and let me just tell you
25 that I'm, I'll say on the record the answer to this
01 question will not get you in trouble in any way -- were
02 there any illegal drugs used?
03 A. Not used, but there was in the vehicle, yes.
04 Q. So let me ask you directly, did you -- what was
05 the illegal drug?
06 A. I had some marijuana in the truck.
07 Q. Did you smoke Marijuana on Sunday, August 17?
08 A. I did.
09 Q. You did?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. Okay. Did Corey?
12 A. Not that I know of.
13 Q. I'm sorry?
14 A. Not that I know of.
15 Q. Did Kyle?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You had it in the vehicle?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you used some?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And your testimony is that Kyle did not and Corey
22 did not?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Do you know the name of the location where you
25 went to scout deer?
01 A. No, it was off of a, of Popple Dungeon Road, it
02 was a logging trail.
03 Q. Any landmarks, any --
04 A. No, pretty much down the middle of forest.
05 Q. Did you have a plan for the balance of the day?
06 A. No, we were just, you know, going with the flow.
07 It was, you know, taking a day off. We worked, you know,
08 usually fifty, fifty-five hours a week, so we needed a
09 little break.
10 Q. Okay. Understanding where we're heading with
11 these events. What, what's the next thing that happened
12 that was of significance?
13 A. We got towards the end of the logging road, and I
14 guess it was around the time that Kyle's mom's store was
15 closing, she called Kyle because his dog was there, and
16 she wanted us, you know, to come pick the dog up because
17 she wanted to know what we were doing with the dog,
18 obviously. So he got off the phone with her, and we went
19 back in his apartment, above his mother's store, so we
20 went back there, and that's when we got Kyle's dog. And
21 at that point, we, Corey was a little upset because he
22 was squished into the back of the truck, so we decided to
23 take his truck, because he wanted to drive. He was tired
24 of being in the back seat. So we went to the store,
25 picked up Kyle's dog, and then got into his brother's
02 Q. You went to the store, you picked up the dog, and
03 because the Bolaski brothers live above the store --
04 A. Right.
05 Q. -- you switched trucks at that point?
06 A. Right, exactly.
07 Q. And Corey starts driving now?
08 A. Right.
09 Q. Does Kyle have a license, do you know?
10 A. He does.
11 Q. What's the plan?
12 A. There's an apple orchard up behind the Bolaski's
13 parents' house that they have been hunting for years, so
14 we decided to go there, and that was going to be our next
15 place to go scouting.
16 Q. Before anyone gets to the ball field, so thinking
17 about Sunday, before you get to the ball field, anyone
18 discharge the rifle?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So during the scouting, is there any shooting at
22 A. No.
23 Q. You switch into Corey's vehicle?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. What happened, what happens to the .22?
01 A. It stayed in Kyle's truck.
02 Q. Stayed in Kyle's truck?
03 A. Correct.
04 Q. Is there a vehicle in Corey's vehicle -- is there
05 a rifle in Corey's vehicle?
06 A. No.
07 Q. So at this point, when you're going up to the
08 apple orchard, there's no weapon in the truck?
09 A. Correct.
10 Q. Do you go to that orchard?
11 A. No, we didn't make it to the orchard. We left for
12 the store, and we went up a back road that goes to
13 Springfield, Tribow Road, and for some reason or another
14 Kyle had called Tristan Blanchard because he's a friend
15 of Kyle's. I'm not sure why he called him but --
16 Q. Go ahead.
17 A. And then that's when Tristan, I guess, was on the
18 phone. He, Kyle, said he sounded scared and upset, said
19 that this guy Vinny was following him around town and
20 driving back and forth by his house looking for him, so
21 at that point Kyle asked Corey to turn around because
22 Tristan was scared, he wanted to get out of there, so we
23 were going to pick Tristan up and take him for a ride
24 with us because he knew, we knew that Vinny didn't know
25 who we were, didn't know our vehicle, and we just wanted
01 to get Tristan out of that situation.
02 Q. Let me back up here. Why does Kyle call Tristan?
03 A. I have no idea.
04 Q. It's a call out of blue?
05 A. Tristan's been a friend of Kyle's for awhile. You
06 know, I'm, he talks to him, you know, probably couple
07 times a week. He was just calling him, you know, to, I'm
08 not sure why.
09 Q. You're clear it was Kyle who calls Tristan, not
10 the other way around?
11 A. I'm ninety percent sure that's how it went.
12 Q. Does Kyle want to buy drugs?
13 A. No.
14 Q. About what time of the afternoon is that phone
16 A. I'd say it was around four o'clock or so.
17 Q. So obviously you can only hear one side of
19 A. Right.
20 Q. This is a cell phone conversation?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Kyle's cell phone?
23 A. Um.
24 Q. Yes?
25 A. Yes.
01 Q. Okay. So what do you learn from Kyle after he
02 ends his phone call?
03 A. I said, he said that this guy Vinny was looking
04 for Tristan, wanted to fight him or something along those
05 lines, and that he had been following him through town
06 and driving back and forth in front of his house, and I
07 guess Tristan was crying on the phone and pretty upset,
08 so we just wanted to go get him and get him out of there.
09 Q. Did you do that?
10 A. We did.
11 Q. And you picked Tristan up?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. So now who is in the vehicle?
14 A. Corey, Kyle, me, and Tristan, and Harley.
15 Q. Whose vehicle?
16 A. Corey's truck.
17 Q. What do you do?
18 A. From there we went through Chester by the Jiffy
19 Mart, and we are going to go back to Springfield and
20 continue our scouting. When we got through the Chester
21 depot, Tristan was obviously, he was talking to us about
22 what was going on, he was, you know, pretty scared and
23 upset. He said he doesn't feel safe in his own home,
24 he's never felt like he can't protect his girl friend
25 ever, you know, in his life like this. He said if he
01 goes back home, he thinks that Vinny's going to show up
02 and he's going to have a gun, he thought that, you know,
03 the worst would happen with him.
04 Q. He thought that Vinny might have a gun?
05 A. (Indicates)
06 Q. What did Tristan -- was that a yes in response?
07 A. Yes. I'm sorry.
08 Q. What did Tristan tell you had been going on
09 involving Vinny?
10 A. He said that there had been this incident with Ben
11 Millay, I guess, and a phone call was placed between Ben
12 and the girl, Julie, I guess, Vinny, Vinny was with
13 Julie, and that Vinny had showed up at Tristan's house
14 and walked in. Tristan said he had stolen money from him
15 and that he was, he was a scary guy, and that he was, you
16 know, he walked right in his house and he wouldn't leave.
17 Q. Did Tristan discuss an incident with Gib Bastian?
18 A. He did. He talked to us about the fight, I guess,
19 that had taken place the night before.
20 Q. Now, Tristan told us that it wasn't money that was
21 taken, it was a bag of pot, of marijuana?
22 A. Well, that could be, but when we picked him up, he
23 told us that it was money that was stolen off of him.
24 Q. Could you tell what was Tristan's demeanor, do you
25 know what I mean, his attitude, his personality?
01 A. He was scared, crying, shaking. He was pretty
03 Q. What happened, what did you guys do?
04 A. Tristan said that he had tried getting a pistol
05 from someone's father or something along those lines, and
06 at that point in time Corey Bolaski suggested that he
07 could, he has a rifle that Tristan could borrow for the
08 night, in case, you know, the kid comes back, because he
09 didn't feel safe, he said if Vinny comes back, he thinks
10 he's going to have a gun so --
11 Q. Did Tristan ask for a gun, or was it offered
12 to him; how did that happen?
13 A. No, he didn't ask for it. Corey offered to help
14 him, borrow one of his, because he told us he was looking
15 for one.
16 Q. Tristan said that?
17 A. He did.
18 Q. So in response to him, Tristan, saying he was
19 looking for a gun, what did you guys do?
20 A. From that point we, we drove past the apartment,
21 and we headed into Gassetts. We didn't pick up a rifle
22 at that point in time. We actually headed back towards
23 Springfield. We were going to go for a ride, we are
24 trying to calm Tristan down.
25 Q. Do you at some point return to Chester to the
01 Bolaski residence?
02 A. We do.
03 Q. How much later is that?
04 A. An hour and a half, I'd say, later.
05 Q. What do you do for an hour and a half?
06 A. We were just riding the back roads in Springfield.
07 Q. Who is drinking during that ride?
08 A. I was.
09 Q. Who else?
10 A. I was, I was the only one drinking.
11 Q. Kyle has stopped drinking now?
12 A. He did.
13 Q. Why?
14 A. I'm not sure why. We only had a six-pack.
15 Q. There's vodka, as well?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Who is drinking that?
18 A. I only took a few sips off of it. There was,
19 there was some vodka left.
20 Q. You indicated that you had marijuana. Did anyone
21 smoke marijuana during this?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So, you go back to the Bolaski residence at some
25 A. Right.
01 Q. Why?
02 A. What had happened was when we were in Springfield,
03 Corey's fuel light came on, he was low on gas, so we
04 ended up throughout our adventure on the back roads, we
05 came back to the Bolaski apartment because Kyle's truck
06 had a full tank of gas, so we are going to get into
07 Kyle's truck. And the plan at that time, when we got to
08 the apartment, was we were going to go back to Tristan's
09 house and all hang out there at that point in time when
10 we switched trucks, when Corey went there and got the
11 rifle for Tristan to take home with him.
12 Q. Okay. Before you switched trucks this time, has
13 there been any telephone contact with Kirby Donahue or
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There has?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. When was there contact with either of those
19 two people?
20 A. It was about twenty minutes after we left Chester.
21 Tristan was still upset and crying, and I thought since
22 Vinny didn't know who I was or who the Bolaskis were, and
23 we weren't involved in any of the situation, maybe I
24 could call him up and try to figure out what, you know,
25 is going on to see if, you know, maybe we could resolve
01 this issue, so --
02 Q. Tristan issue?
03 A. Right. And everyone else who had had a problem
04 with him. So I used Tristan's phone and called Kirby's
05 phone. She answered, and I asked to speak with Vinny.
06 Vinny got on the phone, and I asked him, you know, why
07 you doing this, you know, what, what, what's the point of
08 this? Why can't you just leave everyone alone, you know.
09 Q. Jerry, folks over here have heard some fairly
10 salty language, we might say. And they've heard the
11 words that were actually used. So, you seem like a
12 polite person, but throughout as we talk about what goes
13 on, if the actual words might not be words you ordinarily
14 say in public, it's all right to go ahead and use them.
15 A. Vinny got on the phone, and he asked me who I was.
16 I introduced myself, and he actually started screaming
17 into the phone, and his words were, I'm fucking crazy, I
18 already knocked your biggest friend out, which I assume
19 would be Gib. He said, he says, he said bring whoever
20 you want, whatever you want to do. He kept saying he was
21 crazy, and he was swearing and screaming in the phony,
22 couldn't even talk because he was screaming so loud into
23 the phone.
24 Q. You responded pretty strongly, as well?
25 A. I did. I actually got a little upset with him,
01 obviously, because I didn't even know who he was, and
02 he's screaming at me through the phone, and I was just
03 trying to call to help solve the issue.
04 Q. How did you respond?
05 A. What I said was we need to meet up because we
06 need, we need to figure this whole thing out, and Vinny
07 suggested, he goes, well, if you want to talk to me, you
08 need to come to my fucking house, this and that. Which
09 was, I guess, on Summer Street. He's giving me
10 directions over the phone. And during that conversation
11 I actually loss cell phone service with him. So at that
12 point, I actually got nervous and scared because I
13 didn't, I didn't know what this guy was, you know,
14 planning on doing, what he was like, and that's when I
15 called Tim, who --
16 Q. Tim Arbuckle?
17 A. Tim Arbuckle, right. And Tim, you know, he's
18 pretty much like a big brother to me, you know, I felt
19 safer if maybe I knew where he was or if I was with him
20 when we confronted the kid. So I called him, and he said
21 that he was down at the softball field and that there was
22 a softball tournament going on. He said if you want, you
23 can have him meet down here where there's a bunch of
24 people, you know, he wouldn't try anything. So I then --
25 Q. Who talked to Tim?
01 A. I did.
02 Q. Anyone else talk to Tim?
03 A. No.
04 Q. What was Tim offered to come help out?
05 A. He wasn't offered anything.
06 Q. Go ahead.
07 A. So at this point I called Kirby's phone back, and
08 Kirby answered, and I told her, you know, we need to
09 figure this out, you guys need to come meet us down to
10 the ball field in fifteen minutes.
11 Q. This sounds like a diplomatic mission. Was this a
12 a plan, did you talk about there being a fight?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How about the discussion about telling them to
15 bring whatever he wanted?
16 A. Vinny said you guys can bring whatever you want,
17 he goes, he was, he was swearing and screaming on the
18 phone saying, oh, it's not going to help, do whatever you
19 want, this and that. It was pretty much the extent of
20 the conversation.
21 Q. Were you talking to Vinny, or did you hear him in
22 the background?
23 A. The first phone call was when that was taking
24 place, I was actually talking to Vinny himself.
25 Q. The conversation where you discussed going to the
01 ball field, who was that with?
02 A. Kirby.
03 Q. What do you do after relaying to Kirby to meet at
04 the ball field?
05 A. We were in Springfield, we actually came down, we
06 stopped at a convenience store. Corey had to go to the
07 bathroom, and then from there we head towards Chester
08 towards the ball field, but we ended up going up some
09 more back roads in Chester, and that's when Corey's fuel
10 light turned on, and we ended up going to Gib's house
11 because we were going to see if Gib was there, maybe we
12 could ride with him or, you know, something like that.
13 But we went to Gib's, and he wasn't there, so we got out
14 at Gib's. At this point it had been thirty-five, almost
15 forty minutes since I talked to Kirby last. Tristan had
16 called Gib and asked him if he could come up and pick us
17 up or maybe everyone wanted to, you know, stay at Gib's
18 house because it was, you know, out in the middle of
19 nowhere. And Gib said that he was, he was in Chester,
20 that he wasn't going to come back to his house. So at
21 that point the new plan was to go back and get into
22 Kyle's truck, because Kyle had a full tank of gas.
23 Q. Had a meeting time been arranged at the ball
25 A. Yeah, it was fifteen minutes, I told them to meet
01 us there in fifteen minutes when we were in Springfield.
02 And when we got to Gib's, it was actually probably
03 forty-five minutes after that phone call.
04 Q. Did you go back to change vehicles?
05 A. We did. We went to the, our apartment and
07 Q. What happened, what was the switch?
08 A. When we went there at this point, we figureed it
09 was like an hour after the phone call, we figured, you
10 know, he wasn't going to be at the ball field, we weren't
11 concerned with going there at that point. We were going
12 to bring Tristan home and drop him off. So, Corey went
13 in to his apartment when we got there and grabbed the
14 rifle for Tristan to bring home with him.
15 Q. What kind of rifle was that?
16 A. It was a 30-06 hunting rifle.
17 Q. Whose gun is that?
18 A. I believe it was Corey's.
19 Q. Scope or no scope?
20 A. No, no scope.
21 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me a moment.
22 Thank you.
23 BY MR. SAND:
24 Q. Who got the 30-06?
25 A. Corey did.
01 Q. What did you do with that?
02 A. He put it in the back seat.
03 Q. Of whose vehicle?
04 A. Kyle's.
05 Q. What happens to the .22?
06 A. It's still in the truck. It never left.
07 Q. Where do you go from there?
08 A. From there we had discussed going to Tristan's
09 house and hanging out. Corey wanted to go so Jiffy Mart
10 to pick up a six-pack. We're going to go back to
11 Tristan's and all hang out there. So from there we
12 actually drove to the Jiffy Mart in Chester. Corey went
13 into the store to buy his six-pack, and at that point
14 Mike Gleason had called Kyle's cell phone, and he said
15 that this kid, Vinny, was just outside of his house
16 screaming at him, threatening him, Mike was pretty upset,
17 he was scared, also, and Tristan's girl friend and Gib,
18 and I believe Jordan were at Mike's, too, when Vinny
19 showed up. So Tristan asked us to go down to Mike's
20 because his girl friend was there, and, you know, he was
21 afraid for her, so he wanted to go get her out of there.
22 So Corey had come out, and we headed down to Mike
23 Gleason's house. When we got to Mike Gleason's, he was
24 standing out front with a shovel because he had been
25 planting some hostas that me and Kyle dropped off for him
01 earlier, I think it was either earlier that day or
02 earlier Saturday, it was one of those two days, but he
03 was, when we pulled up, he was scared, I mean, he was
04 holding the shovel, shaking, and, I mean, Mike's a, he's
05 a pretty good sized kid, and he was, he was scared. When
06 we pulled up, we pulled up in front of his house, and he
07 actually waved us on, told us, you know, to keep going,
08 because he didn't, you know, he didn't want anything to
09 happen at his house. And the next place, the ball field,
10 is like two houses down from Mike's, so at that point I
11 wanted to go talk to Tim, because everything was, you
12 know, escalating, so we all ended up going back to the
13 ball field.
14 Q. Why is it escalating?
15 A. Because Vinny's driving around town at this point
16 looking for people. He was looking for Gib, and Tristan,
17 because he wanted, wanted to fight them or something
18 along those lines.
19 Q. Who is driving Kyle's truck?
20 A. Corey is.
21 Q. Why is Corey driving Kyle's truck?
22 A. Because Kyle had had a few beers.
23 Q. Where is Kyle?
24 A. In the passenger seat.
25 Q. Where are you?
01 A. I'm in the back.
02 Q. Where's Tristan?
03 A. He's in the back.
04 Q. Where is the 30-06?
05 A. In the back.
06 Q. Where?
07 A. It was in the middle in between the seat.
08 Q. I don't know what that means. Is it bench?
09 A. It's a bench seat, but there's like a little, I
10 don't know what you call it --
11 Q. Seam?
12 A. A seam, yeah, they were actually underneath the
13 center console in the front, and the butt end of it was
14 on the back seat.
15 Q. You say they?
16 A. Both, both rifles, yes.
17 Q. So where do you go from Mike Gleason's house?
18 A. We went to the softball field.
19 Q. What happens next?
20 A. We pulled down into the softball field where, you
21 know, everyone was there, was a bunch of cars down there.
22 We pulled up next to a few cars, and Gib, who was at
23 Mike's, actually, followed us down in there, and he
24 parked right next to us.
25 Q. On which side of your vehicle is Gib's vehicle?
01 A. He's on the passenger side.
02 Q. Is there any vehicle between the pickup truck
03 you're in and Gib's vehicle?
04 A. No.
05 Q. Okay. What happens?
06 A. We had all got out, and Kyle obviously, it was a
07 brand new truck, he had rifles in the truck, and there
08 was kids playing, so he locked his truck, and we got out,
09 and we started, you know, mingling with the crowd.
10 Q. Who had the keys?
11 A. Corey did. We got out.
12 Q. How did Kyle lock the truck?
13 A. He just pushed the button, and it locks. We got
14 out, we started mingling, you know, with everyone who was
15 down there. There was some kids playing, you know,
16 people hanging out. And at this point I told him Tim
17 about the kid being at Mike Gleason's, and Tim and Mike
18 Gleason are, I guess, good friends, so Tim had called
19 Mike to find out what was going on. You know, we were
20 down there for probably five to ten minutes, and Julie
21 Kronberg's car pulled in with Vinny and Kirby.
22 Q. How do you know it's her car?
23 A. Because the people who knew it was her car said.
24 Q. Did you know it?
25 A. No, I didn't, no.
01 Q. You know what kind of a car it was?
02 A. It was a gray Pontiac.
03 Q. Do you know if that car had any noticeable damage
04 to it?
05 A. No.
06 Q. Okay. Where did they park in relation to where
07 Corey had parked the truck?
08 A. They parked up on like the entrance road, and it
09 was probably a hundred yards from where we were.
10 Q. What happened next?
11 A. Everyone who was down where, returned, because
12 Vinny had gotten out of the car, and he was screaming
13 from up there, waving a Tazer, screaming, Gib, Tristan,
14 I'm going to fucking kill you, where are you guys. You
15 know, screaming all kinds of stuff.
16 Q. Had you ever seen this person you're calling Vinny
18 A. No.
19 Q. How do you know it was him?
20 A. Because Gib was, said that's, that's the guy.
21 Q. Okay. So what was he saying?
22 A. He was screaming for Gib and Tristan, saying he
23 was going to, you know, fucking kill them, and all, he
24 was screaming all kinds of stuff, swearing. He is
25 screaming, I'm from Boston, you guys don't know who
01 you're messing with, this and that, and that went on for
02 a couple minutes.
03 Q. Who from your group screamed back?
04 A. Tim.
05 Q. What did Tim say?
06 A. Tim told him to put the Tazer down, and I think he
07 swore at him a few times. And at this point Vinny handed
08 the Tazer off to who I guess was Julie, because I had
09 never met her, either, she was in the driver's seat, and
10 then she started waving the Tazer out the window saying I
11 got it, I got the fucking Tazer, you know. And then
12 Vinny was still screaming taunting us, trying to get us
13 to go up there. So Tim, Tim said, you know, this is
14 enough, you know, this has got to stop. So Tim
15 approached, started approaching him, and then another
16 person was following him, Tim, and then Kyle followed
17 that person, and Corey and me, and one other person, you
18 know, a big group of us were going to go up there. And
19 we were walking up there, we got, I'd say, from here to
20 that door away.
21 Q. You're pointing to the back door of the courtroom?
22 A. The double door there, yes. We got to, you know,
23 that distance from him, and he was screaming at us, you
24 know, telling us to come closer, come closer, and we had
25 all stopped at that point. We were trying to talk to
01 him, you know, and then Tim took one more step forward,
02 and at this point Vinny, the back door was open of the
03 car, he reached in and grabbed the axe and started
04 charging at us. Tim ran. I was in the center of the
05 column of people. Tim and some other kid on my left and
06 Corey and Kyle and someone else was on my right. I
07 looked to my left. I saw Tim and other kid running, and
08 then I looked to my right, I saw them running. And then
09 I looked back up, and Vinny was from me to you running at
10 full speed at me with the splitting maul drawn. And at
11 that point, I turned around and started running as fast
12 as I could, because I obviously, he was coming at us with
13 an axe. We ran down the road. I was the last one in
14 line, and a girl, Jordan, was standing on the side of the
15 pathway. There's like a little fence, she was standing
16 there, and I heard from behind me while I was running, I
17 heard him say, I could kill this fucking cunt right now.
18 And I turned around, and he was, you know, within a
19 swinging distance of Jordan. So at this point I stopped,
20 to get his, started screaming at him to get his attention
21 back on me so he wouldn't go after her, and Kyle had
22 stopped because he saw me stop. Kyle came up behind me,
23 and then Vinny started chasing us again. And me and Kyle
24 both turned around and ran. I split off to the left and
25 Vinny just zeroed right in on Kyle. Kyle was running for
01 his truck. Vinny was right behind him. Kyle ran for his
02 door, went to grab the door handle, and the truck was
03 locked. So he obviously couldn't get in, he had slipped,
04 and Vinny was right behind him. And just as he slipped
05 Vinny took a swing, and he hit the, Kyle's door of the
06 truck right where Kyle was just standing. If, you know,
07 if Kyle hadn't of slipped he would have hit him in the
08 back with the axe. So at that point I ran around --
09 there was some bathrooms right by the truck -- I ran
10 around the back side of bathrooms, and Kyle had gone
11 around the other side of the truck. Corey saw that he
12 was trying to get in, unlock the truck, I'm assuming,
13 during, then when Kyle grabbed the rifle out of the
14 truck --
15 Q. You're assuming because?
16 A. Well, because I had just come around the back of
17 the bathroom. I didn't really see which way he had gone,
18 you know, and as I came around the bathroom, I saw Vinny
19 smashing the side of the truck numerous times with the
21 Q. Which side?
22 A. Driver's side. Kyle then came around, I believe,
23 it was the front side of his truck, and Vinny, Vinny saw
24 him and went the other side, getting into the truck, and
25 after Vinny saw that, he started going around the back
01 side of the truck to get to Kyle. Kyle had actually come
02 around the front, and Vinny came back around like there.
03 Q. Back around the back side?
04 A. Back around from where to where. I just was, Kyle
05 had pulled up and told him to stop, you know, stop coming
06 at me, stop, stop.
07 Q. Did you hear Kyle speak?
08 A. I did at this point. I was, I'd say, five feet
09 behind Kyle. Kyle was screaming for him to stop. He
10 didn't stop. He was within, you know, one, one swing.
11 He could have hit Kyle with the axe at this point. And
12 that's when Kyle fired. Now the first shot he was
13 shooting at his left leg. I didn't actually see it go
14 into his leg. I saw the ground behind explode. I saw
15 dirt, you know, fly up. Vinny was so unphased by that
16 first shot that I thought Kyle had completely missed him.
17 At this point Jordan had come running from behind me, and
18 she was coming up behind to grab Kyle. And I saw her,
19 and I ran and picked her up to get her out of there, and
20 I picked her up and ran her back to the crowd of people
21 to hand her off to get her, you know, out of the
22 situation. Somewhere during that point in time is when
23 Corey had grabbed the .22 out of the truck because the
24 windows were smashed out, and he didn't want, you know,
25 Vinny to see there's another gun in there, you know, and
01 start using it on someone. So I had, I handed Jordan off
02 to the group of people, and I couldn't see Kyle at this
03 point. He was, I'm assuming, around the back side of his
04 truck somewhere because I couldn't, I couldn't tell where
05 he was. And I looked up, and I saw Corey backpedaling
06 with the rifle in the front of Kyle's truck, and I saw
07 Vinny coming at Corey, and at that point I turned to
08 start running, you know, to get out of there, and Corey
09 fired his rifle twice. I now know that it was into the
10 ground, but at that point in time I thought Corey had
11 actually shot him.
12 Q. Did you hear two gunshot rounds discharged?
13 A. From Corey's gun, yes.
14 Q. How did you know it was Corey's gun?
15 A. I could see it. You can hear, I mean, I've been
16 hunting for probably twelve years, so I, I know the, you
17 know, the sounds between the two.
18 Q. What happens next?
19 A. I was running when Corey fired. I thought he
20 actually, he shot. I thought he shot him, too. At this
21 point I started freaking out, and I ran as fast as I
22 could to get ahold of his parents, because I knew that,
23 you know, obviously either going to need their parents, I
24 thought that Corey had actually shot him. So, I had at
25 this point, I pretty much blocked out. I was just
01 running as fast as I could. I never heard Kyle fire
02 again because I was obviously so shooken up, I didn't,
03 you know, I was just trying to get out of there. I ran
04 probably a couple hundred yards. I looked back, and I
05 saw Vinny laying on the ground. Then I turned back
06 around and ran into the woods.
07 MR. SAND: What is the pleasure of the
08 group? In terms of a break. I think the court reporter
09 is part of the group, as well.
10 I think I have fifteen more minutes. We
11 anticipate the group would have some questions.
12 MR. KELLEY: You people like to take,
13 would be a break, Mr. Ucci. We wouldn't want to, don't
14 want to keep you here any longer. We also want to make
15 sure time we have to fully understand what you know about
16 this event. If we were to take a break, it would be
17 until about one o'clock.
18 Do people want to continue? And take a
19 break afterwards?
20 JUROR: Yeah.
21 MR. KELLEY: That would be good.
22 MR. SAND: I'm sure Nancy's going to like
24 MR. KELLEY: Is that okay with you, Nancy?
25 If we continue on?
01 Was that a no?
02 JUROR: She doesn't want to be part of the
04 MR. KELLEY: Sure, we can, we can try to
05 keep it to half an hour.
06 MR. SAND: You tell me.
07 MR. KELLEY: In the interest of time, that
08 half an hour.
09 MR. SAND: So we will resume at quarter of
11 MR. KELLEY: Good.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Ucci, it's important that
13 you, nothing said in this room can be discussed with
14 anyone other than perhaps an attorney; okay?
15 THE WITNESS: Um-hum.
16 MR. SAND: So, we'll see you back here at
17 quarter of one.
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
19 MR. SAND: All right.
20 JUROR: You okay?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, thank you.
22 JUROR: We have cookies and water and
24 (Recess, 12:13 - 1:50 p.m.)
25 MR. KELLEY: The grand jury is seated,
01 Mr. Sand.
02 MR. CAHILL: Mr. Foreman, you want to
03 remind him he's still under oath?
04 MR. KELLEY: That's a good idea.
05 MR. KELLEY: Thanks for coming back in.
06 We're sorry for the delay. Just remember you're under
07 oath. If you'd like me to read it again to you, I'd be
08 happy to.
09 THE WITNESS: That's all right.
10 MR. KELLEY: Okay. Thank you.
11 BY MR. SAND:
12 Q. Jerry, what I'd like you to do is describe what
13 happens from the moment you first see the axe or the
14 splitting maul?
15 A. Describe --
16 Q. Tell us what happened.
17 A. I was a little bit in shock, obviously. I never
18 had someone that, of that size or, you know, I've never
19 had any one come at me like that before. I would say I
20 was scared for my life. I didn't, I didn't want to get
21 hit, you know, with an axe. He had chased us, you know,
22 down through the ball field, and like I said, he went
23 after the, I heard him, you know, going after the girl.
24 Q. That's Jordan?
25 A. Jordan, right. And I don't know what made me
01 stop, I guess, I don't know, I just wanted to make sure
02 she was all right, you know, so I stopped to get his
03 attention off of her on to me.
04 Q. Did you throw anything?
05 A. I did. I threw a beer bottle towards him, not at
06 him, but near him to get his attention back onto me.
07 Q. Did that seem to work?
08 A. It worked, yeah. Then he came chasing me, and I
09 guess Kyle was right behind me, and Kyle started running
10 with me, and I split off to the left, and he started
11 going after Kyle. Kyle had gone for his truck, and
12 he had slipped, and Vinny was, you know, couple steps
13 behind him and swung the axe.
14 Q. Okay. Is Kyle zigzagging at all or beelining?
15 A. It was a straight line to get into his truck.
16 Q. Is the man with the axe going in a straight line?
17 A. Yeah, he was couple steps straight behind him.
18 Q. At the time that Kyle touches his truck, how far
19 back you think is the man with the axe?
20 A. He was, he was close, he was within swinging
21 distance of Kyle.
22 Q. What happens?
23 A. Kyle went for the door, and he, you know, he was
24 running full speed, and he went to stop, obviously, to
25 get the door open, and he slipped, he fell, and as he was
01 falling, Vinny came through with the axe and hit the
02 truck where Kyle was just standing.
03 Q. Where are you standing?
04 A. At this point I was running to go around the
05 bathroom. I could see the truck just before the
07 Q. And what happens after the man swings the axe the
08 first time?
09 A. He hits the truck, and Kyle had rolled over or,
10 you know, rolled out of way, or, you know, crawled out of
11 the way. At that point I went back side of the bathroom
12 towards where the front of the truck was, and Kyle had at
13 this point, I saw him, he was on the passenger side of
14 his truck, and when I looked up, Vinny was smashing the
15 driver's side with the axe numerous times.
16 Q. How many times did you see Vinny strike the truck?
17 A. It's hard to have an exact number. I'd say at
18 least five times.
19 Q. When you see Kyle now on the passenger side, does
20 he have the rifle?
21 A. No, he didn't have it yet. He had just gotten the
22 passenger door open.
23 Q. What, if anything, did you see him do?
24 A. I didn't see him actually, you know, physically
25 grab the rifle or, you know, load it, or, you know,
01 whatever happened there. When I came around the
02 bathroom, I saw him on that side of truck, and after
03 Vinny got done hitting the truck the last time, saw him
04 there, Vinny saw Kyle over there and started going around
05 the back of the truck to get to Kyle on the other side.
06 Q. When Kyle gets the gun, have you already come
07 around the bathroom?
08 A. Yes.
09 Q. Once Kyle has the rifle, who makes the next move
10 at that point?
11 A. Kyle came around the front of his truck with the
12 rifle, Vinny saw him coming around and came back from
13 around the back of the truck back towards him, Kyle had
14 pulled up on him, told him to stop, he told him to stop
15 numerous times. I was only a couple feet behind Kyle to
16 his right, I could see it clearly, Vinny was coming at
17 him, he was within, you know, one step and a wing of
18 hitting Kyle before Kyle fired. Like I said, when Kyle
19 fired at his leg, Vinny was so unphased, I actually
20 thought Kyle had missed him
21 Q. Do you know which gun Kyle had?
22 A. It was the 30-06.
23 Q. How do you know that?
24 A. Because you can, it's bigger, you can tell the
25 difference between the two.
01 Q. Bigger in size, bigger in sounds?
02 A. Yeah, both.
03 Q. Both?
04 A. Yes.
05 Q. Which side of the truck are they on?
06 A. The driver's side.
07 Q. Is Kyle toward the front of the vehicle, shooting
08 toward the back, or toward the back shooting toward the
10 A. He's right next to the driver's door shooting to
11 the back of the truck.
12 Q. Okay. What happens after first shot is fired?
13 A. The crowd obviously, you know, started panicking,
14 everyone started panicking. Like I said, out of corner
15 of my eye, I saw Jordan running for Kyle, she was going
16 to try to grab him from behind. She was within, you
17 know, like two steps of grabbing him. And I, I don't
18 even know how I reacted, and grabbed her, and turned
19 around, and ran her back to the crowd of people who were
20 standing by the tent. At that point when I looked back,
21 Kyle and him, I couldn't see where they were, they were
22 behind his truck, I was over toward the front, so I
23 couldn't actually see what their steps, you know, where
24 they were going. And I came back around to where I was
25 originally standing by the bathroom, and at that point I
01 had saw Corey grabbing the other rifle out of the truck.
02 And he looked up at Corey, he was backpedaling like in
03 between, there was a truck parked, a truck or jeep parked
04 in front of Kyle's truck, and Corey was backpedaling in
05 between the two with the .22 drawn, and saw Vinny coming
06 at him. And at that point I turned to start running, and
07 Corey fired twice. I didn't see that he fired into the
08 ground. I thought, you know, that he actually fired at
09 Vinny. So at this point I went and into complete panic
10 mode, couldn't even, the only thing I could think of was
11 to get their parents because, you know, I knew obviously
12 they were in trouble.
13 Q. At the time that Corey fired twice, what direction
14 was he traveling in?
15 A. He was running backwards. The front of truck is
16 here, he was running backwards like this.
17 Q. Was he running backwards?
18 A. Yeah, was he was backpedaling with the gun drawn.
19 Q. In relation to where the direction Corey was
20 headed, what direction was Vinny headed?
21 A. He was coming straight at him.
22 Q. What was Kyle doing at this point?
23 A. I couldn't see Kyle at that point. I didn't, I
24 didn't know where Kyle was.
25 Q. So did you then hear another shot?
01 A. I didn't. All I heard was Corey's two shots, and
02 then I just, I freaked out and started panicking and just
03 ran. I didn't find out that Kyle had actually shot a
04 second time until the next day.
05 Q. Did you leave the scene at this point?
06 A. I did. I ran to get his parents.
07 Q. Did you ever see Vinny on the ground?
08 A. I did. I stopped probably three hundred yards
09 from the truck, looked back, and saw Vinny laying, I
10 think it was like behind Gib's car on the ground.
11 Q. That as relates to Kyle's truck, which side of
12 Kyle's truck would Vinny have gone on the ground?
13 A. The passenger's.
14 Q. Did you see anyone around him?
15 A. I didn't.
16 Q. You -- no?
17 A. No.
18 MR. SAND: Your witness.
19 JUROR: You said when you called, finally
20 got to talk to Vinny, you were calling just to see what
21 was going on, but Vinny made reference to guys can agree
22 on bring what you need to bring. You mention the, about
23 anything you had, weapons or things, I guess, like that?
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 JUROR: Why would he say that?
01 THE WITNESS: I'm assuming he thought
02 because there was, I guess there was a large amount of
03 people who confronted him the night before, he thought
04 that maybe I was calling up to, to try to, you know, do
05 something to him or, you know, so I, I didn't know even
06 who he was. I was just calling to see, I thought he
07 didn't know who I was, so he can't be mad at me because I
08 haven't done anything to him, so I figured I can maybe
09 talk to him, trying, try to figure out what was going on.
10 JUROR: Thank you.
11 JUROR: Were you aware of any ammunition
12 for those guns in the car?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. There was a clip that
14 goes in 30-06 that had been put in the glove box of
15 Kyle's truck when the gun was put in the truck.
16 JUROR: And that's all?
17 THE WITNESS: That's all.
18 JUROR: So that how you would load the
19 30-06 with, slip the clip into it?
20 THE WITNESS: Correct. You have to slide
21 a clip in and then actually cock the gun.
22 JUROR: So how many bullets are in this
24 THE WITNESS: I think there was three.
25 JUROR: So when you slide the clip in and
01 you pull it back, you can then fire it, and then if you
02 want to fire it again, you just pull the thing back
04 THE WITNESS: No, it was a semi-automatic
05 gun. Once it's loaded, and you cock it back, then you
06 can fire through your clip without --
07 JUROR: -- without having to reload. So
08 it was all set at that point, okay.
09 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 JUROR: If you already had the .22 in the
11 truck, and you were supposedly going to give Tristan a
12 weapon to protect himself, why did, why was the larger
13 gun chosen to give him and not the .22, which was a
14 smaller caliber?
15 THE WITNESS: Because when we suggested to
16 give Tristan the 30-06, we were in Corey's truck. The
17 .22 was not in Corey's truck. It was in Kyle's truck.
18 Corey was the one suggested to give Tristan the gun.
19 Corey was actually giving his rifle. Kyle wasn't giving
20 him his.
21 JUROR: Seems like you know a fair amount
22 about these. What conditions were the weapons in? I
23 mean, ready, good condition?
24 THE WITNESS: They were, I mean, we've
25 been, you know, we've gone through hunter safety course
01 numerous times. We've been trained to, you know, only
02 use it, you know, for hunting purposes. We know, we've
03 been told never to use it against people unless, you
04 know, absolutely have to. You know, it goes against
05 everything we've ever been taught throughout our entire
06 life growing up, you know.
07 JUROR: Both weapons are in full working
09 THE WITNESS: I mean, we take care, you
10 know, obviously, you know, we've been taught to take care
11 of, you know, our stuff.
12 JUROR: Thank you.
13 JUROR: So you said it was no damage to
14 either weapon at all?
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 JUROR: No.
17 THE WITNESS: Not that I know of. They
18 weren't mine, so I didn't.
19 JUROR: When you're riding and scouting,
20 were the guns loaded?
21 THE WITNESS: We never went scouting with
22 the guns loaded.
23 JUROR: The .22 was never loaded?
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 JUROR: Are you saying that the clip for
01 the 30-06 was in the glove compartment?
02 THE WITNESS: Correct.
03 JUROR: At the time that the incident
05 THE WITNESS: Correct.
06 JUROR: So it helps me understand, the
07 individual would have had to have gotten the clip out of
08 glove box, gotten in the vehicle, got the clip out of
09 glove box, loaded the weapon, and then shot?
10 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
11 JUROR: Okay.
12 JUROR: And also would it have taken Corey
13 a little bit of time to load the .22, would you say?
14 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sure, yeah, yeah.
15 JUROR: He had the shells with him.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. You know,
17 they weren't mine. I don't know, you know, where they
18 were kept, you know, their stuff. I wasn't sure.
19 JUROR: Were they rolling around the
21 THE WITNESS: No, they were, the guns
22 were, you know, they were, they were stuffed in between
23 the crack in the seat, and they were setting on the back
25 JUROR: Is there reason to assume they'd
01 taken a fair amount of time and effort to get them out;
03 THE WITNESS: Yeah, you know, they have
04 been loading and unloading weapons for ten years, so I'm
05 sure they can probably do it, you know, pretty fast.
06 JUROR: Are you positive that the guns
07 were not loaded? I mean, how would you know they were
08 not loaded?
09 THE WITNESS: I know for sure that the
10 30-06 wasn't, because I watched him put the clip into the
11 glove box. As far as the .22, I don't know, you know, if
12 that was loaded or if, if they had to load it, you know.
13 JUROR: Is it possible that was an extra
14 clip; would you know for sure that it wasn't loaded?
15 THE WITNESS: No, it was unloaded. There
16 was only one clip.
17 JUROR: You're positive?
18 THE WITNESS: I'm positive, yes.
19 JUROR: So if Corey's gun was 30-06, and
20 Kyle's was the .22, how did he end up switching the guns?
21 THE WITNESS: The .22 never left Kyle's
22 truck. When we went back to switch from Corey's truck to
23 Kyle's truck, Corey then grabbed the 30-06 from his
24 apartment and put it in Kyle's truck.
25 JUROR: I understand that. I'm sorry,
01 asked the question incorrectly. At the scene of the
02 accident, Kyle had 30-06?
03 THE WITNESS: Right.
04 JUROR: Which was not his gun?
05 THE WITNESS: It was probably just the
06 closest one, you know, probably just was reacting,
07 happened in, you know, less than a minute, you know, he
08 was just, probably just went in and grabbed whatever one
09 he got first, you, you, you know, Kyle, if he's going to
10 grab it in a minute.
11 JUROR: Meanwhile Vinny's ranting and
12 ramming the driver's door?
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, he was still smashing
14 the side of the truck.
15 JUROR: Five times, you said.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, something like that.
17 JUROR: Does this truck have four doors?
18 THE WITNESS: It does, it's the back door
19 folds out this way.
20 JUROR: Does it have a separate handle for
21 the back doors?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, there's a handle
23 on the inside of the door.
24 JUROR: Not on the outside?
25 THE WITNESS: No.
01 JUROR: If I'm standing on the outside of
02 the truck to get into the back seat, I have to open the
03 front door?
04 THE WITNESS: Okay.
05 JUROR: Okay?
06 JUROR: There's a point where, where
07 according to what you've told us, where Vinny just
08 narrowly misses hitting Kyle. And then Kyle gets up,
09 goes all the way around the front of his vehicle, opens
10 the door, opens the glove compartment, gets the weapon,
11 loads the weapon. Could Kyle have done something else
12 during that length of time? In other words, could he
13 have, could he have done something to keep himself safer
14 than that, you think?
15 THE WITNESS: Vinny wasn't, he was
16 there to hurt someone with that axe. He was not going to
17 stop. And, you know, he wasn't just going to just say
18 okay, I just smashed the side of your truck, and leave.
19 You know, he was determined to do harm to someone.
20 JUROR: Right. But if that's the case,
21 would Vinny have turned his attention away from Kyle and
22 started to focus on the truck, or would he have continued
23 after Kyle and again -- I know that it's --
24 THE WITNESS: See, I'm not sure, at this
25 point I think Kyle was just thinking about the safety of
01 the, himself, obviously, because he almost got hit with
02 an axe, his brand-new truck is being destroyed.
03 JUROR: Right.
04 THE WITNESS: And the other twenty people
05 who are standing there. He knew, I mean, someone was
06 going to get, he was determined to hurt someone.
07 JUROR: I have a question. So he's
08 pounding the truck. And everybody else is sort of
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUROR: Instead of taking cover, nobody
12 else --
13 THE WITNESS: Some people took off, most
14 people, they were just, they were frozen, you know, they,
15 no one in Chester had ever seen anything like that, no
16 one ever expected anything like that to happen, you know.
17 I mean, anyone who is from Chester wouldn't have done
18 something like that. You know, so it was pretty
19 unexpected. And everyone was just, you know, couldn't,
20 couldn't believe what was happening, you know.
21 JUROR: Now, you said when he was swinging
22 the axe and almost hit him, then when he run around the
23 front, Vinny followed him?
24 THE WITNESS: No, he kept smashing the
25 truck at that point.
01 JUROR: So he had time to open the front
03 THE WITNESS: Right.
04 JUROR: Get the cartridge?
05 THE WITNESS: Right.
06 JUROR: Also got to open the back door to
07 get in there?
08 THE WITNESS: Because where the gun was
09 sitting, you can actually, I mean, it's not a really big
10 cab, you could grab it from the front.
11 JUROR: You could.
12 THE WITNESS: Actually you could.
13 Because, I mean, the front seat is just two bucket seats,
14 there's an opening in the middle, and the guns were in
15 the middle there, so you could reach in and --
16 JUROR: Oh.
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 BY MR. SAND:
19 Q. You watched Kyle put the clip into the glove box?
20 A. I did watch him put it in the glove box.
21 Q. Where did that take place?
22 A. At the house when we loaded the gun into the
24 Q. How many people did it take to load the gun into
25 the truck?
01 A. One, one, Corey brought the gun out.
02 Q. Corey brought the gun out, and Kyle went in and
03 got the clip?
04 A. No, no, Corey brought both out. While we were at
05 the apartment, Corey had actually showed him how to load
06 the rifle.
07 Q. Showed --
08 A. Tristan. And then they pulled the clip out. I
09 watched Kyle put it in the glove box.
10 Q. When Vinny is smashing the truck, where is the
12 A. In the truck.
13 Q. What happened to the dog?
14 A. When the door got opened on the passenger side,
15 the dog ran out, jumped out of the truck and ran.
16 Q. Is the dog okay?
17 A. Yeah, the dog's fine.
18 JUROR: And can you remind me again, you
19 may have told me this, but I apologize, how did the door
20 get unlocked, again? Where was Corey?
21 THE WITNESS: Corey was on the passenger
22 side of the truck, and he saw, obviously, Kyle going for
23 the truck to open the door, and Corey had the keys, and
24 he saw that it was locked, obviously, and he actually
25 pushed the unlock button so Kyle could get into the
02 JUROR: So at this point in time, could
03 Corey have grabbed other weapon at this point in time?
04 THE WITNESS: Could he have? He could
05 have, but he didn't.
06 JUROR: Could Corey have got to a weapon
07 sooner, quicker, faster than Kyle?
08 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, because
09 Corey was standing back from the truck on the passenger
10 side, a pretty good distance so --
11 JUROR: So he used remote; right, it's
12 a --
13 JUROR: Got it out of his pocket or
14 wherever it was?
15 THE WITNESS: Right, right.
16 JUROR: You made reference to the point of
17 Kyle's truck being new. Would you say that was his prize
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean, he, he liked
20 his truck a lot. He had only had it for couple months,
21 maybe. It was the first brand-new truck he's ever had
22 so --
23 JUROR: When Kyle slipped, he slipped
24 under the vehicle, beside the vehicle, grabbed onto
01 THE WITNESS: When he slipped, he fell on
02 his back, and it was, you know, directly down from the
04 JUROR: Good.
05 JUROR: You made reference that you were
06 the only one that was drinking beer, smoking weed and --
07 THE WITNESS: No.
08 JUROR: -- drinking vodka?
09 THE WITNESS: No, I said me and Kyle had a
10 few beers.
11 JUROR: I thought I understood first you
12 only had a couple beers each?
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 JUROR: Okay. Also made reference later
15 on that he switched, not wanting to drive vehicle because
16 he already had a few beers? I'm just unclear as to how
18 THE WITNESS: We had a six-pack split
19 between the two of us. That was it.
20 JUROR: Okay. So more than two beers?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, two to three beers,
23 JUROR: So looks like a fair amount of
24 time between when the fifteen minutes, fifteen-minute
25 phone call made and you guys get there?
01 THE WITNESS: I'd say there was almost
02 hour and a half between there.
03 JUROR: You're still on those last couple
04 of beers?
05 THE WITNESS: No, no, not at that time.
06 JUROR: You had got another one?
07 THE WITNESS: No, we hadn't had any more
08 beers at this point. Corey wanted to go to the store to
09 get a six-pack so we could go back to Tristan's and have
10 a few beers.
11 JUROR: Okay.
12 JUROR: Then what was it that you threw at
14 THE WITNESS: A beer bottle.
15 JUROR: Okay. And where does that beer
16 bottle come from.
17 THE WITNESS: When I got down to the ball
18 field, I had actually had one of beers that Corey had
19 bought at the store.
20 JUROR: In reference to Kyle's slipping
21 and Vinny trying to hit him with the splitting maul, the
22 axe, would it be your opinion that he missed Kyle and hit
23 the truck?
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, if Kyle hadn't
25 slipped, it could have hit him right in the center of his
02 JUROR: Then he just got wrapped up in it?
03 THE WITNESS: Then he just kept, kept
04 hitting, hitting it, and hitting it.
05 MR. SAND: Mr. Ucci, thank you very much.
06 THE WITNESS: Thank you.